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How hustle culture took over advertising

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Re: How hustle culture took over advertising

#61

Post by yitianjian »

johnchristopher wrote: post #53
apatters wrote: post #24

I'm American but I've lived overseas for nearly a decade, and I hardly ever go back. In recent years when I meet other Americans who are visiting my city, I often get this vague feeling that they're just trying too hard in one way or another. Maybe they're working too hard, or trying too hard to impress someone, or get attention, or assert themselves. I don't know if I've changed or if America is changed or if it's s…

> Where does this all come from? This is an honest question. Why are people working themselves to death in the US and having this crazy mindset that doing stuff which puts you on the verge of a breakdown is good? When did this start? I believe it all started when the Church of Pavlina opened and easy access to personal development blog fueled by Ferris and others. The ubermensch was promoted. At the same time Amazon…

Hey - I've never really heard about the "Church of Pavlina", and Google isn't really forthcoming. Do you mind explaining what you mean a bit?

Re: How hustle culture took over advertising

#62

Post by alxlaz »

esotericn wrote: post #42
alxlaz wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If someone has no options left but to abuse their fellow man in order to survive - that doesn't make it respectable. Respectable as an activity, no, but understandable -- yes. From the comfort of your own home after a light lunch, it's easy to say that you should refuse to participate in the advertising industry, even if that means starving on the streets. The people who choose advertising over seeing their kids gr…

> From the comfort of your own home after a light lunch I don't think this sort of ad hominem attack is productive; it instantly puts people on guard and stifles debate. I may be mistaken, but as far as I'm aware, you know nothing about me or my background. That out of the way; I think the idea that people work in advertising because otherwise they'd be homeless and starve is a falsehood. It might be true in some cas…

It wasn't an ad hominem attack -- I didn't mean you specifically :-). I'm sorry if that wasn't more obvious in the post. It's the same as "You generally want to double-check before you run rm -rf" -- I mean, you probably do, too, but it's meant as a general statement.

Edit: other than that, I obviously agree that's an extreme (and rare) case. I just want to emphasize that it's worth keeping the exceptions in mind. The advertising industry is what it is, and everyone who chooses to work in it is responsible for what they do -- but that's true of every mentally-able adult, that doesn't mean everyone is also truly free to make a choice.

Re: How hustle culture took over advertising

#63

Post by helipad »

johnchristopher wrote: post #53
apatters wrote: post #24

I'm American but I've lived overseas for nearly a decade, and I hardly ever go back. In recent years when I meet other Americans who are visiting my city, I often get this vague feeling that they're just trying too hard in one way or another. Maybe they're working too hard, or trying too hard to impress someone, or get attention, or assert themselves. I don't know if I've changed or if America is changed or if it's s…

> Where does this all come from? This is an honest question. Why are people working themselves to death in the US and having this crazy mindset that doing stuff which puts you on the verge of a breakdown is good? When did this start? I believe it all started when the Church of Pavlina opened and easy access to personal development blog fueled by Ferris and others. The ubermensch was promoted. At the same time Amazon…

Isn't Tim Ferriss' belief the opposite of overworking? I thought that was the whole point of the 4-hour Work Week.

Re: How hustle culture took over advertising

#64

Post by mattnewton »

eiaoa wrote: post #60
rabidrat wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we're all increasingly aware that our society and infrastructure are crumbling, and no matter how "rich" the country as a whole is, if you haven't built up your own security through wealth, you're [going to be] fucked. And that awareness translates into people being willing to overwork themselves, so they don't lose their spot in the rat race; and corporations with money to spend on workers are well-positione…

> I think we're all increasingly aware that our society and infrastructure are crumbling, and no matter how "rich" the country as a whole is, if you haven't built up your own security through wealth, you're [going to be] fucked. And that awareness translates into people being willing to overwork themselves, so they don't lose their spot in the rat race; and corporations with money to spend on workers are well-positio…

When participating in the system of the US, wealth and job security are extremely useful. It may be rational to think “I will have more impact working to the bone and then donating/volunteering, than I would if I worked less and volunteered more”

Re: How hustle culture took over advertising

#65

Post by eumenides1 »

Ygg2 wrote: post #43
bachmeier wrote: post #22

> it wasn’t just working hard — it was “maximizing every last bit of energy you have in order to produce.” That reminds of this blog post by Jamie Zawinski[1]: "What is true is that for a VC's business model to work, it's necessary for you to give up your life in order for him to become richer. Follow the fucking money. When a VC tells you what's good for you, check your wallet, then count your fingers. He's telling…

EDIT: Make sure you don't click the link but copy and paste it. It seems the author is intercepting all traffic from HN site to an interesting image.

I love that the author is doing that.

Re: How hustle culture took over advertising

#66

Post by eiaoa »

mattnewton wrote: post #64
eiaoa wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think we're all increasingly aware that our society and infrastructure are crumbling, and no matter how "rich" the country as a whole is, if you haven't built up your own security through wealth, you're [going to be] fucked. And that awareness translates into people being willing to overwork themselves, so they don't lose their spot in the rat race; and corporations with money to spend on workers are well-positio…

When participating in the system of the US, wealth and job security are extremely useful. It may be rational to think “I will have more impact working to the bone and then donating/volunteering, than I would if I worked less and volunteered more”

> When participating in the system of the US, wealth and job security are extremely useful. It may be rational to think “I will have more impact working to the bone and then donating/volunteering, than I would if I worked less and volunteered more”

I think that's the trap: you can't work yourself to the bone then have energy to work more to be active in your community, volunteer, run for office, pester politicians with letters, etc. Those are the kind of activities that I think could avoid the decay and perhaps even lead to some improvement.

I think it's a mistake to view "donating money" as meaningful response to many current social problems. Many of them are caused or propped up by people with more money than you could ever dream of having. Thinking that mere donations can win is like thinking a group insurgents could win in a stand-up direct fight against the US Army. The insurgents have different advantages than the US Army, and if they're smart, they'll use them rather than futilely attempting to reach parity with the US Army's strengths.

There's definitely some minimum amount of donations that will be required to really change things, but at a certain point I think the returns diminish.

Re: How hustle culture took over advertising

#67

Post by esotericn »

alxlaz wrote: post #62
esotericn wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> From the comfort of your own home after a light lunch I don't think this sort of ad hominem attack is productive; it instantly puts people on guard and stifles debate. I may be mistaken, but as far as I'm aware, you know nothing about me or my background. That out of the way; I think the idea that people work in advertising because otherwise they'd be homeless and starve is a falsehood. It might be true in some cas…

It wasn't an ad hominem attack -- I didn't mean you specifically :-). I'm sorry if that wasn't more obvious in the post. It's the same as "You generally want to double-check before you run rm -rf" -- I mean, you probably do, too, but it's meant as a general statement. Edit: other than that, I obviously agree that's an extreme (and rare) case. I just want to emphasize that it's worth keeping the exceptions in mind. Th…

Sure.

On the latter point - I strongly disagree that people don't have a choice, but I think this is outside of the scope of the comment thread.

It's the sort of thing I wouldn't mind discussing over a pint rather than in front of a screen. :P

Re: How hustle culture took over advertising

#68

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

blitmap wrote: post #44
apatters wrote: post #24

I'm American but I've lived overseas for nearly a decade, and I hardly ever go back. In recent years when I meet other Americans who are visiting my city, I often get this vague feeling that they're just trying too hard in one way or another. Maybe they're working too hard, or trying too hard to impress someone, or get attention, or assert themselves. I don't know if I've changed or if America is changed or if it's s…

Anecdotal: 1) Working 40 hours a week does not support my long-term goals (house fund, retirement, vacations, etc). Which is another way of saying my job doesn't pay enough. 2) Companies will gladly have someone perform the work of 3 people and replace them when they burn out. It is rarely in the budget to increase staff with additional work (hah).

Equally anecdotal: when I found myself in this position 20 years ago, my response was to move to a lower COL part of the country that still had plenty of tech jobs (Upper Midwest).

I only wish I had done it even sooner!

Re: How hustle culture took over advertising

#69

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

yitianjian wrote: post #61
johnchristopher wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where does this all come from? This is an honest question. Why are people working themselves to death in the US and having this crazy mindset that doing stuff which puts you on the verge of a breakdown is good? When did this start? I believe it all started when the Church of Pavlina opened and easy access to personal development blog fueled by Ferris and others. The ubermensch was promoted. At the same time Amazon…

Hey - I've never really heard about the "Church of Pavlina", and Google isn't really forthcoming. Do you mind explaining what you mean a bit?

Steve Pavlina is/was a programmer turned motivational(?) speaker.

Re: How hustle culture took over advertising

#70

Post by kazinator »

phillc73 wrote: post #58
rabidrat wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we're all increasingly aware that our society and infrastructure are crumbling, and no matter how "rich" the country as a whole is, if you haven't built up your own security through wealth, you're [going to be] fucked. And that awareness translates into people being willing to overwork themselves, so they don't lose their spot in the rat race; and corporations with money to spend on workers are well-positione…

> if you haven't built up your own security through wealth, you're [going to be] fucked. Another approach is to build security through self sufficiency and community based initiatives. For example, growing your own food wherever possible, or community gardens on common land. There is a long list of examples and ideas where future security, defining that as decent quality of life, health and education, doesn't need to…

Modern society relies on mass scale agriculture which cannot be replaced by community gardens. If everyone had to meet their nutritional needs with a community garden that is within walking distance of where they live, we basically couldn't have cities.

Growing your own food is work; where is the retirement plan? What if you're not able? Even if you are, many people want to do things other than farming when they retire.

It feels like the ultimate defeat: what have I achieved in this lifetime of work, when I'm reduced to land-to-mouth existence, like an ancestor tens of thousands of years before me? Where is the progress?

Theft is a problem in community gardens. If you just grow enough to sustain yourself and someone steals your produce, you're back to fucked.

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