As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men • Hacker News Board

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#231

Post by Frondo » Mon, Nov 05, 2018, 3:07 PM UTC

jaxtellerSoA wrote: post #220

Frondo wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm coming from the same place, except I don't think it's privilege, I think it's wanting to build a world where anyone can take a year off for anything and not have that held against them if they later want to go work for someone. We're living in an era where, resource-wise, we could be post-scarcity, but politically, it's all locked up in a shitty, shitty system. I want to keep imagining a world in which people are…

> I'm coming from the same place, except I don't think it's privilege, I think it's wanting to build a world where anyone can take a year off for anything and not have that held against them if they later want to go work for someone. Do YOU want to have surgery from a surgeon that hasn't performed in year? Your idea is fine utopian, fluffy unicorn, ideology. But practically it just won't work. This doesn't have anyth…

Surgeons can and do take a year off from their practice, and return to work. I would absolutely be patient #1 after some surgeon's sabbatical.

I also find it deeply depressing that "a person should be able to take a year off work" is now utopian, fluffy unicorn ideology on a forum for forward-thinking technologists.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#232

Post by mindcrime » Mon, Nov 05, 2018, 3:08 PM UTC

Frondo wrote: post #204

xyzzy_plugh wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why should I hire the person who was away for a solid year on parental leave over the guy who has been working diligently during that time? Maybe I'm coming from a place of privilege but that point of view makes me incredibly sad. I can't imagine being able to discriminate based on parental leave

I'm coming from the same place, except I don't think it's privilege, I think it's wanting to build a world where anyone can take a year off for anything and not have that held against them if they later want to go work for someone. We're living in an era where, resource-wise, we could be post-scarcity, but politically, it's all locked up in a shitty, shitty system. I want to keep imagining a world in which people are…

Taking a year off probably isn't "being held against you" per-se. But after that year, you're competing against all the people who didn't take a year off. And in many contexts that year of honing skills, staying abreast of industry developments, etc., is valued enough to tip the scales.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#233

Post by DoreenMichele » Mon, Nov 05, 2018, 3:09 PM UTC

madeuptempacct wrote: post #221

DoreenMichele wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm fairly visual-spatial. I now make little websites and take photos and play SimCity. But when I was a homemaker, this largely got expressed as an interest in clothes and household decor because those were basically the avenues open to me. It wasn't particularly fulfilling. I thought dressing well and being pretty would get me a happy marriage. It didn't. I thought having a nice home would get me a satisfactory soc…

>I thought having a nice home would get me a satisfactory social life. It didn't. How does that even make sense? Were you hoping to live around wealthier people and impress them with your nice sofa?

My mother had a great social life. It involved inviting people over, serving dinner, having the ability to allow people to stay overnight as guests.

Replicating the nice dining table and means to allow for overnight guests failed to magically cause guests to appear. I never figured out what piece of the puzzle I was missing. My mother put a lot of emphasis on being able to serve her guests and make them comfortable and she was always surrounded by adoring friends and relatives. I tried to do the same. Somehow, that didn't get me a lively social life.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#234

Post by izzydata » Mon, Nov 05, 2018, 3:12 PM UTC

apatters wrote: post #225

alliecat wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coal mining is a historic industry; we should not be pushing anybody into coal mining (Looking at you, Australia) I’m assuming you picked coal mining because it’s an example of a dirty, dangerous position in an industry that’s rightfully stigmatised by most modern countries. If you’re suggesting that we shouldn’t push women into dangerous jobs but it’s okay to push men into them, then I would counter that we should m…

> If you’re suggesting that we shouldn’t push women into dangerous jobs but it’s okay to push men into them No I didn't suggest this. My question was not about energy policies. Let's substitute coal miners for waste collectors (colloquially referred to as garbage men, because 99% of them are male), and ask the question again. Garbage collection is male dominated -- should we push more women into becoming garbage coll…

We shouldn't push anyone into anything. Why is it ok for a man to be a garbage collector and not a woman? That sounds like gender inequality to me. You can't have it both ways.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#235

Post by naasking » Mon, Nov 05, 2018, 3:12 PM UTC

probably_wrong wrote: post #160

knorker wrote: post #111

Woah there, you can't say that! That's what Damore got fired for!

Stealing from myself from an old comment [1]: there is a difference between what Damore intended to say (assuming the best case) and what his memo actually said. He might have wanted to say "women tend like other things", but his memo ended up saying "women are incapable of doing this thing". He may have had good intentions, but in writing the difference matters. A similar result is seen when authors argue that widel…

> there is a difference between what Damore intended to say (assuming the best case) and what his memo actually said. He might have wanted to say "women tend like other things", but his memo ended up saying "women are incapable of doing this thing".

No he didn't. Go ahead and search for "ability", "abilities", "capable" or any other synonyms in this whole document:

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3914586/Googles-I...

The only place "abilities" appears is where Damore very explicitly said that while there are differences in preferences and abilities, there's so much overlap that you can't make any judgments about individuals. Every reason he cited as possibly influencing gender the disparity was all about preferences and psychological traits that are common to women that would make them dislike STEM-like work, rather than be incapable of performing it.

He also very explicitly suggested measures to improve female engagement based on the actual science available on this issue. There was a lot of misinformation spread about this document.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#236

Post by jernfrost » Mon, Nov 05, 2018, 3:15 PM UTC

frgewut wrote: post #119

jernfrost wrote: post #52

I am highly sceptical to this study. Does anyone have a list of what they measured as differences and how they did it? The reason I am a sceptic is because as a Scandinavian I notice easily how much more macho men are in less gender equal societies and how much more feminine the women are. I don’t think it is an accident that the world’s top female boxer is Norwegian rather than say Italian. I do there is something t…

> I don’t think it is an accident that the world’s top female boxer is Norwegian rather than say Italian. You mean the Colombia born Cecilia Brækhus? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecilia_Br%C3%A6khus

Which is irrelevant given that she was adopted and raised in Norway. Anyway she is just one example of Norwegian women punching above their weight. For a number of years Norwegian women were the best soccer players in the world. There are many other sports examples.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#237

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Nov 05, 2018, 3:16 PM UTC

jaxtellerSoA wrote: post #213

xyzzy_plugh wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why should I hire the person who was away for a solid year on parental leave over the guy who has been working diligently during that time? Maybe I'm coming from a place of privilege but that point of view makes me incredibly sad. I can't imagine being able to discriminate based on parental leave

> Maybe I'm coming from a place of privilege but that point of view makes me incredibly sad. Why? It makes me sad that anyone would want to force business to take on risk that it wouldn't otherwise in the name of "equality". Choices have consequences, if you choose to stay out of work for a year to raise your child then you will be less employable.

[deleted]

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#238

Post by Someone1234 » Mon, Nov 05, 2018, 3:16 PM UTC

Mon29Oct wrote: post #176

This has been observed since Scandinavian countries pushed very female-friendly work laws, only to have differences in gender preferences more marked than ever. The book The Nordic Gender Equality Paradox submits two pieces of explanation to it, which are that 1/ One of the reforms was to offer sumptuous parent leave, encouraging parents to distance themselves from work for a significant duration, but which made the…

It is worth noting that Nima Sanandaji, the author of that and many similar books, is a proponent of small state, free markets, low tax, self determination and responsibility.

In other words, he is a libertarian type, that doesn't support the welfare state, and by extension doesn't support requiring employers to offer maternity and paternity leave.

He has also argued that Scandinavia is doing well due to the free markets, in spite of its social policy, in his book Scandinavian Unexceptionalism.

PS - Just trying to give some context. "Nordic Gender Equality Paradox" isn't an apolitical academic study, it is a book trying to push a certain political agenda.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#239

Post by jernfrost » Mon, Nov 05, 2018, 3:18 PM UTC

gettalo wrote: post #138

jernfrost wrote: post #52

I am highly sceptical to this study. Does anyone have a list of what they measured as differences and how they did it? The reason I am a sceptic is because as a Scandinavian I notice easily how much more macho men are in less gender equal societies and how much more feminine the women are. I don’t think it is an accident that the world’s top female boxer is Norwegian rather than say Italian. I do there is something t…

>I don’t think it is an accident that the world’s top female boxer is Norwegian rather than say Italian. It's probably an accident. Two weeks ago an italian girl won a boxing gold medal in the youth olympics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxing_at_the_2018_Summer_Yout...

Not likely an accident when it fits a pattern of high sports achievement in several areas for Norwegian women.

How many high achieving female athletes are there from say muslim countries?

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#240

Post by Frondo » Mon, Nov 05, 2018, 3:19 PM UTC

jaxtellerSoA wrote: post #213

xyzzy_plugh wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why should I hire the person who was away for a solid year on parental leave over the guy who has been working diligently during that time? Maybe I'm coming from a place of privilege but that point of view makes me incredibly sad. I can't imagine being able to discriminate based on parental leave

> Maybe I'm coming from a place of privilege but that point of view makes me incredibly sad. Why? It makes me sad that anyone would want to force business to take on risk that it wouldn't otherwise in the name of "equality". Choices have consequences, if you choose to stay out of work for a year to raise your child then you will be less employable.

Businesses exist at our leisure -- not the other way around.

As we build and refine our society, it's entirely up to us to determine how best we want to put businesses to work, to improve society.

Anyone who wants the benefits of owning a business can be subject to those rules. Anyone who doesn't want to play by those rules can go solo or work for someone who does.