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A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

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Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#441

Post by wpietri »

cousin_it wrote: post #426
wpietri wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was around at the time, too, and you're missing that the early Internet wasn't free at all: the great majority of the users were part of some postsecondary educational organization. Those places strongly select for very specific kinds of people (smart, collaborative, curious, reasonable, not murder-y), and imposed both formal and informal controls on what was said. Your notion is that 3 corporate-run, lowest-common…

Maybe we remember different things. The way I remember it, the early internet had plenty of horrible stuff and the sky didn't fall. I think silencing people (legally or otherwise) doesn't help reduce murder rate or anything. It just silences people.

It depends on what you mean by early. Certainly up until The September That Never Ended, the great bulk of users were academics of one sort or another. That declined over time, but early adopters were still early adopters. There was some horrible stuff, sure, but it wasn't established. There weren't organizations actively recruiting. The truly horrible people of the time were still mailing newsletters and goose-stepping in person.

You might think that silencing people doesn't reduce the murder rate, but you would be wrong. There are specific crimes of speech related to that, like incitement to riot, because that kind of speech historically leads to violence. You can also look at the history of people who end up killing people. Many of them have histories of radicalization, and that path starts with the mildest of entrypoints. See, e.g., Bellingcat's examination of the radicalization of internet fascists: https://www.bellingcat.com/news/americas/2018/10/11/memes-in...

Or look at how Bowers and Sayoc got to the point of violence: https://www.bellingcat.com/news/americas/2018/10/31/magabomb...

I agree that silencing people in general is bad. But it's very clear historically that some kinds of speech if tolerated lead to violence and death. If you think you can demonstrate otherwise, by all means take a swing at it.

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#442

Post by dvtrn »

8note wrote: post #264
dvtrn wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reeks of both-sides-ism and enablement It's funny you take this view, as fatigued as I imagine you probably feel about, as you're calling it "both-sides-ism"-I like to imagine there are probably other people out there just as fatigued with watching "both sides" act like neither has some kind of fringe-manifested baggage or serious, fundamental issues that need to be brought to the table and reconciled. Hate to b…

I for one, only see one side shooting up synagogues, and locking children in cages

My entire point, laid bare, QED.

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#443

Post by [deleted] »

michaelmrose wrote: post #429
stcredzero wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The totality of the public space being private property in the aforementioned scenario sounds like a unique situation and a poor position to reason from. Really? Because most of YouTube and Facebook very much strikes me as public space. That's how the population thinks of it. That's how society uses it. You would be protecting a wholly imaginary free speech interest while trespassing on a real one. Does anyone really…

In other news if you start holding an open air forum on your political issue of choice inside your nearest walmart you will probably be asked to go do this outside on the public sidewalk. Nobodies rights will be violated by this.

[deleted]

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#444

Post by djsumdog »

8note wrote: post #268
djsumdog wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> #HimToo I haven't heard of this specifically, but the #MeToo movement bothers me greatly, because it implies that we suddenly learned you needed consent for sex; like it was some new revelation. If you look at CDC numbers, just as many men are assaulted sexually as women, but yet the #MeToo movement felt very one directional and didn't talk about assault inclusively of all people. The #BelieveWomen campaign actuall…

> I haven't heard of this specifically, but the #MeToo movement bothers me greatly, because it implies that we suddenly learned you needed consent for sex; like it was some new revelation it's true though; it's largely in response to somebody bragging about not getting consent being elected to the highest office of the US. Without it, Hollywood would still be thinking sexual assault is just the norm, and women have t…

> response to somebody bragging about not getting consent being elected to the highest office of the US.

Wait, when did Trump ever brag about not getting consent? If this is the famous "grab her by the pussy" video, you should really watch the whole thing. He talked about how usually rich men can get women without any work, but this one particular woman wouldn't take his advances, and how he didn't have sex with her.

I don't like Trump at all (I didn't like Hillary either; they're both psychos), but I hate how this clips was taken out of context.

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#445

Post by perl4ever »

kakarot wrote: post #435
pvg wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Censorship is unethical because it's a giant slippery slope of subjectivity What does that actually mean? How would you translate it into any sort of policy short of complete and absolute non-regulation of speech (or, really, anything if you just pick something other than 'censorship' as a scare-word). As to Jones, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Jones#White_genocide

"First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak for me." — Martin Niemöller Alex Jones is a paranoid lunatic, misinterpreting a very real…

"Calling for the extermination of other races would make him a white supremacist."

It seems to me like you're ignoring the plain definitions of simple words in constructing this statement. Wanting to preserve a dominant position in society (which is what it sounds like Jones' concern is) makes one a supremacist. Wanting to eliminate other groups makes one something else, perhaps an "eliminationist" or "exterminationist". They are distinct. You can be both, but you can also be the former without being the latter. Assuming Jones is not an exterminationist, that is entirely consistent with him being a supremacist who either has scruples or doesn't feel the situation is desperate enough yet.

People who feel threatened may reasonably speculate he (or others who are sympathetic to supremacist views) might become an exterminationist if the situation appeared more desperate. That's neither a "true" nor "false" narrative, but a plausible yet uncertain prediction.

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#446

Post by waterhouse »

tptacek wrote: post #433
tptacek wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you caught the reference. Maybe plug that name into Wikipedia and revisit your argument.

I'm seriously interested in what you thought of that argument after you looked up Radio Mille Collines.

"It received support from the government-controlled Radio Rwanda, which initially allowed it to transmit using their equipment. ... Critics claim that the Rwandan government fostered the creation of RTLM as "Hate Radio", to circumvent the fact they had committed themselves to a ban against "harmful radio propaganda" in the UN's March 1993 joint communiqué in Dar es Salaam. ... During the Genocide, the RTLM acted as a source for propaganda by inciting hatred and violence against Tutsis, against Hutus who were for the peace accord, against Hutus who married Tutsis, and by advocating the annihilation of all Tutsis in Rwanda. ... An estimated 10% of all the violence within the Rwandan Genocide is resulted from the hateful radio transmissions sent out from RTLM."

Interesting. Something I might say: given that the reigning government was supporting this stuff, as well as an animated and violent mob from the general population; and given that the "deplatforming" under discussion is done via social pressure, corporate action, and/or conceivably government intervention: how would any kind of mechanism for "deplatforming" have done anything to stifle this RTLM? If anything, such a mechanism would have been directed at dissenting voices.

"One of the major reasons that RTLM was so successful in communication was because other forms of news sources such as televisions and newspapers were not able to be as popularized because of lack of resources." Apparently there was a dissenting radio station, but Wiki says "Radio Muhabura had a much smaller audience, probably because it broadcast in English instead of Kinyarwanda", which is unfortunate. So I guess there was no need for the government to deplatform any dissenting voices, because there weren't any significant ones. Therefore, one could argue that the Rwandan genocide is an illustration of what might happen if the ruling party+mob manage to deplatform everyone who disagrees with them. :-)

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#447

Post by [deleted] »

perl4ever wrote: post #445
kakarot wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak for me." — Martin Niemöller Alex Jones is a paranoid lunatic, misinterpreting a very real…

"Calling for the extermination of other races would make him a white supremacist." It seems to me like you're ignoring the plain definitions of simple words in constructing this statement. Wanting to preserve a dominant position in society (which is what it sounds like Jones' concern is) makes one a supremacist. Wanting to eliminate other groups makes one something else, perhaps an "eliminationist" or "exterminationi…

[deleted]

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#448

Post by [deleted] »

wpietri wrote: post #441
cousin_it wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe we remember different things. The way I remember it, the early internet had plenty of horrible stuff and the sky didn't fall. I think silencing people (legally or otherwise) doesn't help reduce murder rate or anything. It just silences people.

It depends on what you mean by early. Certainly up until The September That Never Ended, the great bulk of users were academics of one sort or another. That declined over time, but early adopters were still early adopters. There was some horrible stuff, sure, but it wasn't established. There weren't organizations actively recruiting. The truly horrible people of the time were still mailing newsletters and goose-stepp…

[deleted]

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#449

Post by kakarot »

pvg wrote: post #438
kakarot wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak for me." — Martin Niemöller Alex Jones is a paranoid lunatic, misinterpreting a very real…

Sweet, let's engage in Learned Quote Battle! "How now, how now, chop-logic! What is this?" --William Shakespeare a very real assault on demographics like the straight white male Oh! Never mind, I'll see myself out.

Try to have a debate in any moderately left forum about topics like feminism or economics without having some people come out of the woodwork with character assassination and insults, disregarding your opinion as a priviliged cis white male. It's a real thing and it's ridiculous. I get told all the time I'm not allowed to participate in conversations based on my sex, sexual orientation, and skin color.

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#450

Post by kakarot »

perl4ever wrote: post #445
kakarot wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak for me." — Martin Niemöller Alex Jones is a paranoid lunatic, misinterpreting a very real…

"Calling for the extermination of other races would make him a white supremacist." It seems to me like you're ignoring the plain definitions of simple words in constructing this statement. Wanting to preserve a dominant position in society (which is what it sounds like Jones' concern is) makes one a supremacist. Wanting to eliminate other groups makes one something else, perhaps an "eliminationist" or "exterminationi…

You could be right about that. I'm not really here to defend Alex Jones' position. I honestly don't know enough about the dude and what he wants. However I will defend his right to a platform as long as he is operating within legal bounds.

Right now we are having a national conversation about the right of an ISP to hold a monopoly over its customers. We don't think it's fair that the only worthwhile ISP in an area can charge tiered amounts for different levels of internet access.

The same conversation is just beginning with regard to platform rights. It's one thing to secure your right to connect to the internet. But we need to secure the right for people to connect to you.

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