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A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

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421–430 of 473 posts

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem that these new communication platforms are trying to deal with is unprecedented. The early internet had to deal with the same problems, yet it was much more free than the internet of today. This isn't a false idealization of the past - I was around at the time. To me the only reason the internet matters is to let individual people speak and be heard - without being silenced by advertisers, the governmen…

Large portions of the Internet were cordoned off from commerce altogether. There was a weekend back in the 90s (probably more than one, but this is the one I remember) where there was an Internet-wide netsplit that cut commercial ISPs like Ripco off from the rest of the Internet. Most conversations on the Internet took place on Usenet, and even in the alt. hierarchy, there were rules and politics behind what stuff go…

I spent a decent amount of time on news.admin.net-abuse.email in 1993 and in the mid-1990s. (ISTR that is where spam on Usenet was mainly discussed.) I was very curious about Usenet, but recall no restrictions on any unmoderated newsgroup (and most newsgroups were unmoderated).

I always believed that the reason it took years for Usenet to do something about spam is because (1) before spam got so bad they had to do something about it, there were no existing restrictions on the propagation of messages and (2) a widespread ethic among those running news servers that any restrictions on propagation, even restrictions on spam, were to be avoided.

What sort of content, in your opinion, was denied propagation back when most conversations on the Internet took place on Usenet?

I got the impression that the ban on commerce over the US backbone was to prevent making any business big enough to be able to afford a PR person or a lobbyist in Washington afraid that the Internet was a threat to its revenue stream.

Back when only a small fraction of the public knew anything about the Internet, the US Government was spending a relatively large amount of money keeping it running, and was consequently vulnerable to sniping from journalists and politicians to the effect that the US government is spending money to giving, e.g., people who are sexually attracted to people dressed up as animals, a forum to communicate with each other.

You and I know that the marginal cost of adding an alt.sex.furries news group to the Internet was so low as to be not worth thinking about, but it would've been hard to get that point across to the voting public.

People were worried for example about the National Science Foundation, one of the major funders of the Internet, getting one of these:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Fleece_Award

Or maybe the ban on commerce over the US backbone was a concession the US backbone's patrons in Washington needed to make to get Congress to continue to allocate funds for it.

The ban was mostly successful only because very few people wanted to do commerce on the internet while the ban on commerce over the US backbone was in place. Possible exception: the last year or so of the ban when the internet was growing very quickly. Exception: people seeking W2 workers or W2 jobs rather than 1099 workers / jobs would've liked to be able to use ba.jobs to advertise, but IIRC it was a moderated newsgroup, and the moderator, like most people running internet infrastructure back then, grudgingly recognized the need for the ban (i.e., to protect the Internet's supporters in Washington from ridicule or from the animosity of powerful groups).

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#422
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

N. Taleb, "The most intolerant wins": https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dict... Looks oddly relevant.

If you're looking for the most intolerant, then look to the side that makes the accusations, does the screeching, does the un-personing and de-platforming, and either calls for violence against its enemies, enacts it, or tacitly accepts it. If you want to find the tolerant, find those who advocate for free speech and those who want to engage and make their arguments. That's the side which has learned the value of tol…

Exactly.

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#423
post #276
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No need to jump to the idea of compulsion. If there were an established social norm that "platform platforms" should make an active attempt to be viewpoint-neutral, chances are that enough of them would voluntarily follow that norm to allow platforms like Gab to continue operating. If the norm isn't established, well, good luck passing a law to force anyone to follow it. Right now, the trend seems to be against such…

Why should "platform platforms" establish a norm attempting to actively appear "viewpoint neutral"? "come a little closer mouse so that I may better catch you and eat you..." Why on earth should society bend over backwards to aid spoiled deliberate attention-seekers when there are 7 billion other people who are actually trying to resolve problems that need our actual attention. These "malingerers" are using up valuab…

I'm not sure what you mean about medical staff. I'm not suggesting that anyone bend over backwards to aid organizations like Gab, merely that they don't go out of their way to ban them merely because they don't like them. For example, in the case of Stripe and PayPal, there doesn't seem to be any suggestion that Gab falls under any of the normal categories that would cause a financial services platform to ban a merchant – e.g. suspicion of fraud or money laundering, high chargeback rates, high rates of fraud among people giving money, anything like that.

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#424
post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It didn't work in Europe. Just look at AfD. That in a country that goes so far in suppressing "toxic and hateful movements", its courts have the power to ban political parties, if their platform deviates too far from the norm.

I think Germany would be significantly more NAZI today if they hadn't been deplatformed after the war. not deplatforming didn't go too well in the US. look at all the white power folks who are showing up, even though they kept their platforms after the civil war.

My point is that all the deplatforming that Germany does - which is extreme for a democracy - was still not enough to actually prevent parties like AfD. Everybody knows what they stand for, but in a free society, you can't imprison people for wink-wink-nudge-nudge. For political censorship to be actually effective, it must be much more oppressive - of the kind seen in authoritarian countries. But then, of course, if you implement it, you end up living in one. And if you don't, then what's there is just security theater.

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#425
post #2

This reeks of both-sides-ism and enablement. "Where does it stop?" is the same slippery slope garbage peddled by #HimToo and #BlueLivesMatter acolytes. But even engaging with the question at face value, the answer is very simple, and the author of this piece didn't try very hard if he couldn't find someone who is able to answer it. In fact, the best answer was given by Karl Popper in 1945. > In order to maintain a to…

> #HimToo I haven't heard of this specifically, but the #MeToo movement bothers me greatly, because it implies that we suddenly learned you needed consent for sex; like it was some new revelation. If you look at CDC numbers, just as many men are assaulted sexually as women, but yet the #MeToo movement felt very one directional and didn't talk about assault inclusively of all people. The #BelieveWomen campaign actuall…

Did you read much about the production of that documentary, or any of the reviews? It is not well-regarded, its creator isn't a journalist, and it was funded (on Kickstarter) in large part by MRA activists.

From the Village Voice review (which is not charitable), and remember the context that her doc opens with an exploration of "rape culture":

I feel comfortable calling her “propagandist” because of my own “research” (ie. “reading the top search results”). Here’s something Elam wrote on A Voice for Men in 2010: “Should I be called to sit on a jury for a rape trial, I vow publicly to vote not guilty, even in the face of overwhelming evidence that the charges are true.” What excuse would any serious documentarian have for not asking Elam to explain that?

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem that these new communication platforms are trying to deal with is unprecedented. The early internet had to deal with the same problems, yet it was much more free than the internet of today. This isn't a false idealization of the past - I was around at the time. To me the only reason the internet matters is to let individual people speak and be heard - without being silenced by advertisers, the governmen…

I was around at the time, too, and you're missing that the early Internet wasn't free at all: the great majority of the users were part of some postsecondary educational organization. Those places strongly select for very specific kinds of people (smart, collaborative, curious, reasonable, not murder-y), and imposed both formal and informal controls on what was said. Your notion is that 3 corporate-run, lowest-common…

Maybe we remember different things. The way I remember it, the early internet had plenty of horrible stuff and the sky didn't fall. I think silencing people (legally or otherwise) doesn't help reduce murder rate or anything. It just silences people.

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#427

> The next challenger to Twitter will not be another centralized platform like Gab. It will be decentralized – perhaps a federation like Mastodon, where each node runs its own CoC and community standards – similar to IRC days. You might want to ask Wil Wheaton what he thinks about Mastodon...

Why is some random actor's opinion unusually important, let alone on a technical topic such as this?

Because what happened to him is relevant to the topic.

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how many of the people arguing for the good of deplatforming have, in other circumstances, argued that internet access is a human right. Also, those denying that internet access is a human right decrying deplatforming. It’s interesting the interaction between those two ideas.

Internet access is not the same as forcing somebody else to host your content. I think most people can tell the difference.

I was unaware that having access to the internet meant a one-way pipe.

I guess you’ve got a right to read email, but not write it; read wikipedia, but not contribute; etc.

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The US government coming in and telling a private entity, no you must tolerate free speech on your property is historical fact and precedent." The first amendment says that the government cannot restrict free speech it has nothing whatsoever to do with a private entity tolerating "free speech" on their property. The totality of the public space being private property in the aforementioned scenario sounds like a uniq…

The totality of the public space being private property in the aforementioned scenario sounds like a unique situation and a poor position to reason from. Really? Because most of YouTube and Facebook very much strikes me as public space. That's how the population thinks of it. That's how society uses it. You would be protecting a wholly imaginary free speech interest while trespassing on a real one. Does anyone really…

In other news if you start holding an open air forum on your political issue of choice inside your nearest walmart you will probably be asked to go do this outside on the public sidewalk.

Nobodies rights will be violated by this.

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#430
post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m sure Radio Television Libre des Mille Collines only wanted their ideas to be seen as ideas, just like all others!

We should let the crazies advertise themselves as crazies. Bad ideas should be exposed so they can be argued down. Suppressing ideas instead of arguing just creates a Streisand Effect entrenching them. There is another comment here, where someone analyzes the Weimar Republic's actions as doing just this. The Judiciary and Law enforcement seemed biased towards one side, which increased support for the other. The legis…

> You shouldn't let rule of law break down. Media and the judiciary should remain impartial and not push an agenda

What are you calling a breakdown of the rule of law here? Which law is supposed to decide who Facebook is required republish?

What are you calling the media here? In this case people are writing their own content, and the folks being deplatformed definitely and unapologetically had an agenda.

What would impartial possibly mean? We are talking about publication of opinions, not journalism or science.

As for being "exposed and argued down", there will always be folks who won't stop an atrocious argument. They didn't sign up for a productive synthesis of ideas, and nobody else signed up for their boorishness and abuse, so it's up to the listener to walk away - as these platforms are doing. That's not suppression of expression, it's standing up for the value of your own time and community. If there is a backlash, maybe it will be more constructive than the original trolling was.

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