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A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

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Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#391
post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's crazy. In that case, ideas aren't being judged as ideas. It's the same sort of "technically not" dishonesty that Noam Chomsky called out in Manufacturing Consent. Western media did indeed cover events not favorable to the US/Nato side. But it was covered in back pages, in the plainest language. Technically, it's not censorship in the same way as Pravda airbrushed people out of photos was censorship. However,…

I’m sure Radio Television Libre des Mille Collines only wanted their ideas to be seen as ideas, just like all others!

We should let the crazies advertise themselves as crazies. Bad ideas should be exposed so they can be argued down. Suppressing ideas instead of arguing just creates a Streisand Effect entrenching them. There is another comment here, where someone analyzes the Weimar Republic's actions as doing just this. The Judiciary and Law enforcement seemed biased towards one side, which increased support for the other. The legislative government seemed to support the other side, which increased support for their opponents.

The lesson of history is clear: You shouldn't let rule of law break down. Media and the judiciary should remain impartial and not push an agenda. Suppressing expression while letting the extremists commit violence in the streets just makes things far worse.

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess they'll have to return to sharing their desire to kill black people the old fashioned way, in person. Something you aren't grappling with here is the way the Internet has enabled previously-scattered terrible people to connect and self-radicalize. David Neiwart, who tracked various "patriot", white supremacist, and other fringe groups since the 90s, wrote a very readable book about how things have changed sin…

Actually inciting violence or conspiring to do so is covered under common law statutes and can be easily prosecuted. This is far different, it is companies deciding on their own volition to unilaterally ban entities from accessing the very "pipes". Today it's at the domain level, so the convenience of being able to type in a name versus an IP is what's at stake. What next, ISP's blocking traffic?.. Like I've said it'…

I understand the principle. I understand you have a belief. I share the principle, and used to have the belief. What I am asking you to do is test the belief on the basis of evidence. I am also asking you to do a cost-benefit evaluation of the principle in terms of other principles.

As you point out, free speech isn't absolute. There are many crimes of pure speech, from false advertising to inciting violence and soliciting murder. Society already has a complicated balance between principles like "free speech is good" and "people shouldn't be murdered".

There is also conflict here between "free speech is good" and "ethnic cleansing is bad". America has a long history of ethnic violence and ethnic cleansing (see, e.g., the Trail of Tears, or the Tulsa Race Riot, where white Americans carried out a ground and air assault on a prosperous black district, killing 100-300 and terrorizing thousands). As we saw in Pittsburgh, that era is not over. Reasonable people have concluded that a) Gab aided Bowers in his path to radicalization, and b) they do not personally want to support that.

Now you could argue that you are ok with some level of ethnic violence as a cost of free speech. You could even argue that unfettered communication is so important that we should diminish the freedom of association of people and their companies, requiring them to host Nazi. But if you are going to argue that, you have to argue that. Talking about warm and fuzzy principles is great, but if you aren't grappling with the costs, then at best it's useless. At worst, though, it's taken as a sign that you don't care about the body count. And it gets taken that way both by the marginalized groups supplying the bodies and by the people who are looking to create more corpses to further their principles.

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Likewise, almost no one cares what a Jehovah's witness has to say. The US government coming in and telling a private entity, no you must tolerate free speech on your property is historical fact and precedent. There is a lawsuit where a company owned this mining company town, including all of its roads and sidewalks. A Jehovah's witness won a lawsuit on the basis of the First Amendment, enabling her to walk about that…

"The US government coming in and telling a private entity, no you must tolerate free speech on your property is historical fact and precedent." The first amendment says that the government cannot restrict free speech it has nothing whatsoever to do with a private entity tolerating "free speech" on their property. The totality of the public space being private property in the aforementioned scenario sounds like a uniq…

It is plainly wrong to say the 1A has “nothing whatsoever” to do with private entities.

Not only has the GP indicated one case (JWs) but there are shopping mall cases and many others where a “public forum” doctrine has extended 1A scrutiny to private property.

(That said I think the analog here for the public forum is somewhere well down the OSI stack. In Layer 7 I am pretty firmly a believer that the private actor discriminates how she pleases.)

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#394
post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m sure Radio Television Libre des Mille Collines only wanted their ideas to be seen as ideas, just like all others!

We should let the crazies advertise themselves as crazies. Bad ideas should be exposed so they can be argued down. Suppressing ideas instead of arguing just creates a Streisand Effect entrenching them. There is another comment here, where someone analyzes the Weimar Republic's actions as doing just this. The Judiciary and Law enforcement seemed biased towards one side, which increased support for the other. The legis…

I don't think you caught the reference. Maybe plug that name into Wikipedia and revisit your argument.

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#395
post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The US government coming in and telling a private entity, no you must tolerate free speech on your property is historical fact and precedent." The first amendment says that the government cannot restrict free speech it has nothing whatsoever to do with a private entity tolerating "free speech" on their property. The totality of the public space being private property in the aforementioned scenario sounds like a uniq…

It is plainly wrong to say the 1A has “nothing whatsoever” to do with private entities. Not only has the GP indicated one case (JWs) but there are shopping mall cases and many others where a “public forum” doctrine has extended 1A scrutiny to private property. (That said I think the analog here for the public forum is somewhere well down the OSI stack. In Layer 7 I am pretty firmly a believer that the private actor d…

[deleted]

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And once again, the quote in broader context: "How can one choose to reason falsely? It is because of a longing for impenetrability. The rational man groans as he gropes for the truth; he knows that his reasoning is no more than tentative, that other considerations may supervene to cast doubt on it. He never sees very clearly where he is going; he is "open"; he may even appear to be hesitant. But there are people who…

I'm not too concerned with who said a particular thing (nor am I concerned with whether or not you'd be voted one way or the other), other than context in which it was said; you can only make this comparison work if you fail to recognise that not only are Jews and anti-semites qualitatively different, they aren't even of the same category. One is a religious group, the other are proponents of a hateful ideology which…

If you're not willing or able to see parallels between Judaism and Nazism or any other ethnically separatist ideology that are quasi-religious in nature, then there's no point in continuing any discussion because you've already drawn a line that doesn't include some humans.

As a parting, however, you've not only proven my point, but re-iterated it by repeating another appeal to authority by citing Marcuse, which is literally advocating for tyranny of the majority (which, ironically, is yet another expression of the reactive ur-fascism that this brand of censorship is a symptom of).

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd love to see your equivalent ancestor in the 1640s when Milton published the Areopagitica.^1 > Reading this polemic is liketh watching someone did beat the ocean with a stick. What wouldst behold liketh for an initiative contra-contra-press-freedom to succeedeth? All ideas havest equal access to all presses? Just the large enou ones? The objective is so po'rly formed, t's not coequal wrong. > A Land's identity and…

Wow, that is an edudite reference and a flatteringly thorough translation. But, taken seriously, the comparison of anti-deplatformers (can y'all make up a catchy name?) to Milton is facile. Milton was fighting for the right to distribute his work, you're fighting for the right to be distributed by others. I'm fully against forceably preventing folks from speaking, and support of investing in protocols so that others…

How are those not synonymous in this day and age? The point of freedom of expression is not inhibiting the right to an audience or explicitly interferring in the marketplace of ideas in civil society. Saying that Facebook, Twitter, Paypal, et. al face any actual injury or diminution in service as a result of hosting pernicious speech is absurd, especially in light of the role of Chapter 47 in the history of the freedom of the Internet.^1

And let's be clear, this isn't a case of the use of a service depriving other more worthy parties of using said service. It is Shaw's comparison between apples and ideas.^2 And it is attempting to tear down a universal principle to make it accountable to shifting tastes and moral fads which makes everyone guilty eventually.

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1 - https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/47/230

2 - “If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange these apples then you and I will still each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange these ideas, then each of us will have two ideas.”

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm aware. I also know that if you are the oppressed person, it can be hard to sort such things out. It can be hard to figure what is legitimate and righteous anger that is nonetheless Verboten to express and what is merely outrage fuel. It can be hard to find your own voice. It is necessary to have a little latitude when trying to do so. It gets vastly more complicated when you are trying to do that in some kind of…

I also know that if you are the oppressed person, it can be hard to sort such things out As a person of color, who has also been the victim of other sorts of impropriety, let me say this: If you want the best and most productive life, you want to get over hate sooner than later. Much sooner. It can be hard to find your own voice. It is necessary to have a little latitude when trying to do so. There is a world of diff…

[deleted]

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No one is going to stop using Paypal and Stripe because they support a platform. This is objectively false. I would stop supporting a business based on who they support. I have done so many times. From web services to food services, and everything in between.

They're a payment processor. If you believe in a non-discriminatory economy, where anyone with a legal, useful service or skill should be able to collect payment for it, then you simply can't have this position. Payment processors must follow the law like anyone else and have no obligation to process payments for illegal services, but we can't start mass boycotting them based on the clients they legally do business w…

Lots of people don't accept your premise that white supremacists deserve FRAND terms for access to commercial hosting providers. I'd go so far as to describe it as the mainstream opinion. So: they can quite simply have that position.

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, that is an edudite reference and a flatteringly thorough translation. But, taken seriously, the comparison of anti-deplatformers (can y'all make up a catchy name?) to Milton is facile. Milton was fighting for the right to distribute his work, you're fighting for the right to be distributed by others. I'm fully against forceably preventing folks from speaking, and support of investing in protocols so that others…

How are those not synonymous in this day and age? The point of freedom of expression is not inhibiting the right to an audience or explicitly interferring in the marketplace of ideas in civil society. Saying that Facebook, Twitter, Paypal, et. al face any actual injury or diminution in service as a result of hosting pernicious speech is absurd, especially in light of the role of Chapter 47 in the history of the freed…

>Saying that Facebook, Twitter, Paypal, et. al face any actual injury or diminution in service as a result of hosting pernicious speech is absurd,

It isn't absurd because an example of such an injury happened last year at YouTube with the "adpocalypse" demonetization debacle.[1]

- Various uploaders put objectionable content on Youtube. Google/Youtube doesn't censor or filter it out.

- Viewers complain loudly about it and threaten to boycott the major advertisers that ran ads against it (e.g. Proctor & Gamble, etc)

- P&G and other advertisers abandon Youtube and Google loses millions[2]. The innocent Youtube channel creators who created mainstream content also lost AdSense reveneue because they got caught up in the stricter content crackdown.

- Some advertisers finally return. E.g. P&G after one year.[3]

Facebook and Twitter can't realistically be an "any and all free speech including hate speech" platform because they are beholden to advertisers. They have the same platform funding dependence as Youtube/Google.

Those social media websites are not in the lower layer of the TCPIP stack such as "common carriers" ISPs like Comcast and Verizon. Those "dumb pipes" telecom businesses are less sensitive to whether a TCPIP packet is routing bytes for hate speech vs pictures of cats.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_by_Google#Advertise...

[2] https://www.google.com/search?q=biggest+advertisers+abandon+...

[3] https://www.tubefilter.com/2018/04/20/pg-resumes-youtube-spe...

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