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A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

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Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#221

Post by comex »

amputect wrote: post #211
im3w1l wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First people get kicked off their platforms "build your own platforms" Then platforms got kicked off the platform platforms "build your own platform platforms" What reason is there to assume those platform platforms will not get kicked off the platform platform platforms? These people are not arguing in good faith.

What's the alternative to "build your own platforms" though. Are you willing to compel Stripe by threat of force to keep processing credit cards for nazis? Are you willing to completely torpedo freedom of association, as long as the people demanding your company continue associating with them are sufficiently monstrous?

No need to jump to the idea of compulsion. If there were an established social norm that "platform platforms" should make an active attempt to be viewpoint-neutral, chances are that enough of them would voluntarily follow that norm to allow platforms like Gab to continue operating. If the norm isn't established, well, good luck passing a law to force anyone to follow it. Right now, the trend seems to be against such a norm.

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#222

Post by DoreenMichele »

stcredzero wrote: post #216
DoreenMichele wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are some very real problems where oppressed people of various sorts have a real need to be able to "speak the unspeakable" in order to sort their own problems. New ideas are also inevitable heretical. Sorting the wheat from the chaff is a challenge. Trying to not throw the baby out with the bathwater is a challenge.

oppressed people of various sorts have a real need to be able to "speak the unspeakable" There's a difference between letting people express themselves and ratifying hate to fuel more outrage. Doing that is throwing the justice baby out with the bathwater -- also because it's more viral and you make more money and get more political power that way.

I'm aware. I also know that if you are the oppressed person, it can be hard to sort such things out. It can be hard to figure what is legitimate and righteous anger that is nonetheless Verboten to express and what is merely outrage fuel.

It can be hard to find your own voice. It is necessary to have a little latitude when trying to do so.

It gets vastly more complicated when you are trying to do that in some kind of group setting. It easily goes bad places.

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#223

Post by philwelch »

archagon wrote: post #168
BurningFrog wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the "fascism is infectious" theory, under which we are all potential fascists if we just get exposed to the "infection". By this theory fascism is somehow so inherently attractive that is has to be regulated similar to an addictive drug.

People are surprisingly easy to reprogram. You can read countless stories of once-liberal parents turning into hateful conspiracy nuts in their old age out of prolonged exposure to right-wing media. If you see people around you saying “white males are undergoing a genocide” or “brown people are criminals” every day, chances are you’ll eventually start to internalize some of those talking points. Without tremendous ef…

> People are surprisingly easy to reprogram.

Not you, though. No way could YOU be under the influence of a totalitarian ideology despite the fact that you are openly advocating restricting basic human rights.

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#224

Post by archagon »

philwelch wrote: post #223
archagon wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are surprisingly easy to reprogram. You can read countless stories of once-liberal parents turning into hateful conspiracy nuts in their old age out of prolonged exposure to right-wing media. If you see people around you saying “white males are undergoing a genocide” or “brown people are criminals” every day, chances are you’ll eventually start to internalize some of those talking points. Without tremendous ef…

> People are surprisingly easy to reprogram. Not you, though. No way could YOU be under the influence of a totalitarian ideology despite the fact that you are openly advocating restricting basic human rights .

I am advocating the right for private organizations to ban fucked-up ideologies from their services. That this is being framed as some sort of totalitarian assault on free speech shows just how far the right-wing rot has gotten.

The balance fallacy will be the death of democracy in America.

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#225

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

pppaul wrote: post #210
wpietri wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess they'll have to return to sharing their desire to kill black people the old fashioned way, in person. Something you aren't grappling with here is the way the Internet has enabled previously-scattered terrible people to connect and self-radicalize. David Neiwart, who tracked various "patriot", white supremacist, and other fringe groups since the 90s, wrote a very readable book about how things have changed sin…

are you OK with most Muslims not using the internet, because their values are radically different from non-muslims (treatment of women, gays, atheists) and they have a fairly high rate of terrorism compared to other ideologies? It's likely that the internet and places like GAB or whatever site you don't like, is a good place to de-radicalize people as well. and you can't even have a place to de-radicalize when the pe…

Muslims are not a coherent whole like your opening statement might make out.

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#226

Post by oh_sigh »

comex wrote: post #221
amputect wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the alternative to "build your own platforms" though. Are you willing to compel Stripe by threat of force to keep processing credit cards for nazis? Are you willing to completely torpedo freedom of association, as long as the people demanding your company continue associating with them are sufficiently monstrous?

No need to jump to the idea of compulsion. If there were an established social norm that "platform platforms" should make an active attempt to be viewpoint-neutral, chances are that enough of them would voluntarily follow that norm to allow platforms like Gab to continue operating. If the norm isn't established, well, good luck passing a law to force anyone to follow it. Right now, the trend seems to be against such…

And - how or why would I care that stripe processed infowars transactions, unless I was actually in the process of buying something from infowars?

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#227

Post by colordrops »

evrydayhustling wrote: post #152

Reading this article is like watching someone beat the ocean with a stick. What would it look like for an "anti-deplatforming" initiative to succeed? All ideas have equal access to all platforms? Just the big ones? The objective is so poorly formed, it's not even wrong. A platform's identity and ability to attract an audience are determined by the activities they accept / cultivate, not vice versa. Infowars wanted to…

> Gab would like to use Stripe or Paypal because they are trusted payment providers, but those networks felt they'd stop being trusted payment providers if they let Gab stay on.

What does that even mean "stop being trusted payment providers"? If their API works and payments go through, that seems trustworthy to me.

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#228

Post by hakfoo »

amputect wrote: post #211
im3w1l wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First people get kicked off their platforms "build your own platforms" Then platforms got kicked off the platform platforms "build your own platform platforms" What reason is there to assume those platform platforms will not get kicked off the platform platform platforms? These people are not arguing in good faith.

What's the alternative to "build your own platforms" though. Are you willing to compel Stripe by threat of force to keep processing credit cards for nazis? Are you willing to completely torpedo freedom of association, as long as the people demanding your company continue associating with them are sufficiently monstrous?

What makes the 'deplatforming' threat viable is that so many critical aspects of an online business are a choice between private-enterprise players. Stripe or Authorize.net. AWS or DigitalOcean. GoDaddy or Namecheap.

As you suggest, they have no individual legal obligation to serve a business that may cause bad press/high risk/whatever. But when you can enough of them pointing in the same direction, it creates the chilling effect-- a business that's technically legal but can't get the services they need. It basically creates am unspoken private regulation well beyond the actual law of the state.

I tend to think the answer might be non-profit or state-run "service providers of last resort" -- charter-bound to provide service for any legal purpose, no matter how distasteful. Not necessarily cheap or slick, but they won't pull your plug because people complain about your content. Such a provider would defang the deplatforming strategy pretty fast.

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#229

Post by daenz »

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #135

> Most successful deplatformings are Pyrrhic victories Big fat citation needed on this. You speculate as to how they may become pyrrhic victories, but it's far from concluded that this will be the case. Previous deplatformings (Milo, Alex Jones) haven't produced any visible negative consequences for the platforms. There's little reason to think this will either. Surprisingly few people care if a den of hate speech ha…

>Previous deplatformings (Milo, Alex Jones) haven't produced any visible negative consequences for the platforms.

Anecdotally, these deplaformings are shifting my worldview further right. And I know for a fact that it is having the same affect on many of my peers. Some might call that a negative consequence.

Re: A Heretic's Guide to Deplatforming

#230

Post by [deleted] »

pppaul wrote: post #210
wpietri wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess they'll have to return to sharing their desire to kill black people the old fashioned way, in person. Something you aren't grappling with here is the way the Internet has enabled previously-scattered terrible people to connect and self-radicalize. David Neiwart, who tracked various "patriot", white supremacist, and other fringe groups since the 90s, wrote a very readable book about how things have changed sin…

are you OK with most Muslims not using the internet, because their values are radically different from non-muslims (treatment of women, gays, atheists) and they have a fairly high rate of terrorism compared to other ideologies? It's likely that the internet and places like GAB or whatever site you don't like, is a good place to de-radicalize people as well. and you can't even have a place to de-radicalize when the pe…

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