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Stop biodiversity loss or we could face our own extinction, warns UN

theguardian.com

61–70 of 165 posts

Re: Stop biodiversity loss or we could face our own extinction, warns UN

#61
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The environment is a complex web of interdependent relationships between species and ecological processes. You remove enough relationships and it'll just collapse.

That's very vague. Collapse how? According to other comments we have already remove 60% of species, why wasn't that enough to cause a collapse. Other species take up the slack left by those removed.

I am not an expert on anything but I can give the answer a stab. Let us make many assumptions:

Say plankton dies off, say animals eating plankton die, say humans eating those animals now have less food. Say all the fish die and we are reduced to land-based food. Now we have more space competing for farm land, we have to clear forest. Clearing adds to CO2 emissions, construction, more emissions, less CO2 being taken out. It's clear how this is all one giant feedback loop. Less biodiversity, more overabundance of something else, which leads to less consumption of something else which leads to collapse of ecosystems which leads to use trying to patch things up and doing even more harm.

Just zoom out and think about things that consume things and how that loops back directly to humans, environment, overproduction, overuse and eventually unsustainable usage of resources until there are none left.

Re: Stop biodiversity loss or we could face our own extinction, warns UN

#62
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The environment is a complex web of interdependent relationships between species and ecological processes. You remove enough relationships and it'll just collapse.

That's very vague. Collapse how? According to other comments we have already remove 60% of species, why wasn't that enough to cause a collapse. Other species take up the slack left by those removed.

Death of insects means no honey and many dead birds.

No pollination means many fallow meadows and dead plants.

This means either weeds spreading or top soil depletion.

This also means many crops we depend on will not survive because various helper species aren’t available.

Earthworms dying mean no areation of soil, or the impact of other insects to improve the eco system.

So no those other species aren’t taking up the slack as you put it. Wasps aren’t interchangeable with moths for example.

But I too want to understand better how far this collapse impacts human beings.

Re: Stop biodiversity loss or we could face our own extinction, warns UN

#63
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The environment is a complex web of interdependent relationships between species and ecological processes. You remove enough relationships and it'll just collapse.

That's very vague. Collapse how? According to other comments we have already remove 60% of species, why wasn't that enough to cause a collapse. Other species take up the slack left by those removed.

My go to example is if we lose insects which pollinate plants we would have a very very hard time growing certain foods. There is a certain unforeseeable complexity to these things.

Just a speculatory example, losing migratory birds could weaken the soil microbiome and seed biodiversity in the places they migrate to, from, and over. There could be a crop-critical organism in their path that relies on the regular influx of new bacteria or seeds from a certain place.

On what we have already removed: a building likely still stands if you remove 60% of the contents of the building, the last 40% is what is really holding it up.

Re: Stop biodiversity loss or we could face our own extinction, warns UN

#64
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The environment is a complex web of interdependent relationships between species and ecological processes. You remove enough relationships and it'll just collapse.

That's very vague. Collapse how? According to other comments we have already remove 60% of species, why wasn't that enough to cause a collapse. Other species take up the slack left by those removed.

There are some good examples in the Wikipedia article on ecological collapse:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecological_collapse

Let's look at it from a different perspective though. If thousands of scientists are wrong and we improve the environment but there was never any danger of human extinction then we still end up with a more enjoyable planet. If thousands of scientists are right and we don't improve the environment then we all die.

Seems like a pretty easy decision to me.

Re: Stop biodiversity loss or we could face our own extinction, warns UN

#65
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Extinct is click bait, but it could definitely harm us. It also makes the world less interesting.

How would it harm us? It's never made clear.

Collapse of food chains and loss of natural beauty are the two most obvious ways.

Re: Stop biodiversity loss or we could face our own extinction, warns UN

#66

Why would reducing biodiversity cause humans to go extinct? It isn't made clear in the article. Wouldn't it just cause certain creatures to be more dominant?

Here's an example of re-introducing a single species to an ecosystem https://www.nps.gov/yell/learn/nature/wolf-restoration.htm

No imagine halving the number of species in yellowstone

Re: Stop biodiversity loss or we could face our own extinction, warns UN

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But for those people the food needs to be free, not cheaper - feeding them shit quality food just so they can afford it is the wrong solution as well. We need to be growing good quality food and those who can't afford it need to be given support to get it. Canned pasta and corn is not a solution just because it's cheap.

What if we instead gave them means (technology) to grow it themselves and encouraged them to group in small communities that grow together? Aquaponics is getting more and more popular and can be very cheap. I imagine that a good "how to" guide and a small monetary donation could help a lot of people.

The people who can't afford food are embedded in a corrupt society that stops anything structural from happening. Food is number one million on their list of needs, along with law and order.

Re: Stop biodiversity loss or we could face our own extinction, warns UN

#68
post #16
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Losing 50% of species _is_ the loss of biodiversity by definition. Just about every species plays a vital role in maintaining a habitat and losing 1 or several has consequences that are hard to predict and could mean a drastic reduction in the ability to grow food and have clean water. What incentives do scientists have to lie about this? Why is everyone so skeptical about warnings that scientists around the world ag…

I don't believe the GP disagrees that losing 50% of species is loss of biodiversity. But the OP might give the impression that is about losing 50% of animals, which seems more apocalyptic. "What incentives do scientists have to lie about this?" They might believe they are lying "in good faith" . Exagerating the impact so people take action. Basically treating the rest of the world as children. And this, like the GP,…

Good news! We haven’t lost 50% of animals. We’ve lost 60%. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/oct/30/humanity...

Re: Stop biodiversity loss or we could face our own extinction, warns UN

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We overproduce food now... The alternatives to Roundup tend to be worse than Roundup. That's why people use Roundup. That's not to say Roundup per se is absolutely necessary, but farming without pesticides doesn't work at the scale necessary to feed the human population. There's no choice between "overproduction" and "appropriate production" by getting rid of pesticides. Despite all the overproduction, we still hav…

> First of all, "organic farming" is marketing BS. At least in the US, there is a "certified organic" label regulated by the USDA. https://www.ams.usda.gov/about-ams/programs-offices/national...

EU has its own label as well[1], and most (or all?) EU states protect the word "organic" on the food market so it can only be used for foods certified by a few approved organizations.

1: https://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/organic/splash_en

Re: Stop biodiversity loss or we could face our own extinction, warns UN

#70

We can't even stop killing each other because of greed and other stupid reasons, we can't even stop global warming, who's going to stop biodiversity loss and how? It's in the nature of mankind to create but also destroy. Every era of civilization was build on the ashes of the former, and the next will not be different, a lot of people will have to die of violent death for humanity to evolve and come to its senses. we…

We kill each other less than we did in the past. Humanity is not a completely static thing.

There are many struggles ahead of us. But not all hope is lost. I wholeheartedly reject any fatalistic notion. There is always something that can be done to improve the situation.

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