Stop biodiversity loss or we could face our own extinction, warns UN • Hacker News Board

Re: Stop biodiversity loss or we could face our own extinction, warns UN

#51

Post by jeremyjh » Sat, Nov 03, 2018, 2:10 PM UTC

ah765 wrote: post #15

omosubi wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Losing 50% of species _is_ the loss of biodiversity by definition. Just about every species plays a vital role in maintaining a habitat and losing 1 or several has consequences that are hard to predict and could mean a drastic reduction in the ability to grow food and have clean water. What incentives do scientists have to lie about this? Why is everyone so skeptical about warnings that scientists around the world ag…

Losing 50% of species sounds bad, but much less bad than losing 50% of all mammal populations. Are we just talking about losing ten thousand obscure rodent species? I actually have no real idea what this value means, which makes me inclined to ignore it. A scientific source would be great, but the article doesn't provide any. If we're talking about "human extinction" level threats, it would probably be from massive f…

Most animal species are insects, so probably that is the majority of animal species that will die out. Insects and grubs, worms etc though can be very important to the local ecology. Loss of some could damage human food production that relies on them in sometimes very indirect ways.

Re: Stop biodiversity loss or we could face our own extinction, warns UN

#52

Post by dyeje » Sat, Nov 03, 2018, 2:13 PM UTC

Illniyar wrote: post #49

Why would reducing biodiversity cause humans to go extinct? It isn't made clear in the article. Wouldn't it just cause certain creatures to be more dominant?

The environment is a complex web of interdependent relationships between species and ecological processes. You remove enough relationships and it'll just collapse.

Re: Stop biodiversity loss or we could face our own extinction, warns UN

#53

Post by vanderZwan » Sat, Nov 03, 2018, 2:16 PM UTC

intended wrote: post #2

So precisely who is going to pay for all this, and the reduction in growth it’s going to entail? Markets are levered if not overlevered, and maintenance of biodiversity is going to have both spending costs for the govt and resource extraction reductions (arguable), followed by compliance costs for firms. Sure we save ourselves, but face it, our economic system is a rational system which at the end must put a finite p…

> So precisely who is going to pay for all this, and the reduction in growth it’s going to entail?

Speaking of rational choices: if faced with paying everything you have or your own extinction, the most rational choice would be to pay everything you have. Nobody would spontaneously make that choice, but it really is.

Making this a very irrational question, in a way.

Re: Stop biodiversity loss or we could face our own extinction, warns UN

#54

Post by TomMarius » Sat, Nov 03, 2018, 2:16 PM UTC

bamboozled wrote: post #43

sverige wrote: post #36

A great place to start would be to seriously limit or eliminate pesticides like Roundup. Don't believe the alarmists in Big Ag who will say the world will starve. We overproduce food now, and organic farming techniques, if widely adopted, wouldn't make it impossible to continue to produce enough. The loss of diversity in insects and "weeds" has had a huge impact up the chain.

I once saw a great quote which was, "maybe food is too cheap". This is probably true, we could probably eat better quality, organic food grown in a more diverse way, it would just cost more. On the flip side, it would be more valued so we'd have less waste. I can't imagine the amount of "non-valued" food, fruit vegetables etc which end up in the bin.

What about people who can't afford it now, though? There are literally billions of them.

Re: Stop biodiversity loss or we could face our own extinction, warns UN

#55

Post by Illniyar » Sat, Nov 03, 2018, 2:20 PM UTC

dyeje wrote: post #52

Illniyar wrote: post #49

Why would reducing biodiversity cause humans to go extinct? It isn't made clear in the article. Wouldn't it just cause certain creatures to be more dominant?

The environment is a complex web of interdependent relationships between species and ecological processes. You remove enough relationships and it'll just collapse.

That's very vague. Collapse how? According to other comments we have already remove 60% of species, why wasn't that enough to cause a collapse. Other species take up the slack left by those removed.

Re: Stop biodiversity loss or we could face our own extinction, warns UN

#56

Post by mikeash » Sat, Nov 03, 2018, 2:23 PM UTC

vanderZwan wrote: post #53

intended wrote: post #2

So precisely who is going to pay for all this, and the reduction in growth it’s going to entail? Markets are levered if not overlevered, and maintenance of biodiversity is going to have both spending costs for the govt and resource extraction reductions (arguable), followed by compliance costs for firms. Sure we save ourselves, but face it, our economic system is a rational system which at the end must put a finite p…

> So precisely who is going to pay for all this, and the reduction in growth it’s going to entail? Speaking of rational choices: if faced with paying everything you have or your own extinction , the most rational choice would be to pay everything you have. Nobody would spontaneously make that choice, but it really is. Making this a very irrational question, in a way.

The problem is that what’s rational for the group is not what’s rational for the individual.

Re: Stop biodiversity loss or we could face our own extinction, warns UN

#57

Post by gambiting » Sat, Nov 03, 2018, 2:24 PM UTC

TomMarius wrote: post #54

bamboozled wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once saw a great quote which was, "maybe food is too cheap". This is probably true, we could probably eat better quality, organic food grown in a more diverse way, it would just cost more. On the flip side, it would be more valued so we'd have less waste. I can't imagine the amount of "non-valued" food, fruit vegetables etc which end up in the bin.

What about people who can't afford it now, though? There are literally billions of them.

But for those people the food needs to be free, not cheaper - feeding them shit quality food just so they can afford it is the wrong solution as well. We need to be growing good quality food and those who can't afford it need to be given support to get it. Canned pasta and corn is not a solution just because it's cheap.

Re: Stop biodiversity loss or we could face our own extinction, warns UN

#58

Post by api » Sat, Nov 03, 2018, 2:26 PM UTC

Illniyar wrote: post #49

Why would reducing biodiversity cause humans to go extinct? It isn't made clear in the article. Wouldn't it just cause certain creatures to be more dominant?

Extinct is click bait, but it could definitely harm us. It also makes the world less interesting.

Re: Stop biodiversity loss or we could face our own extinction, warns UN

#59

Post by TomMarius » Sat, Nov 03, 2018, 2:27 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #57

TomMarius wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about people who can't afford it now, though? There are literally billions of them.

But for those people the food needs to be free, not cheaper - feeding them shit quality food just so they can afford it is the wrong solution as well. We need to be growing good quality food and those who can't afford it need to be given support to get it. Canned pasta and corn is not a solution just because it's cheap.

What if we instead gave them means (technology) to grow it themselves and encouraged them to group in small communities that grow together?

Aquaponics is getting more and more popular and can be very cheap. I imagine that a good "how to" guide and a small monetary donation could help a lot of people.

Re: Stop biodiversity loss or we could face our own extinction, warns UN

#60

Post by Illniyar » Sat, Nov 03, 2018, 2:28 PM UTC

api wrote: post #58

Illniyar wrote: post #49

Why would reducing biodiversity cause humans to go extinct? It isn't made clear in the article. Wouldn't it just cause certain creatures to be more dominant?

Extinct is click bait, but it could definitely harm us. It also makes the world less interesting.

How would it harm us? It's never made clear.