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Why the “circumcision solution” to the AIDS epidemic in Africa may increase it

blog.practicalethics.ox.ac.uk

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Re: Why the “circumcision solution” to the AIDS epidemic in Africa may increase it

#21

Post by mikeash »

isomorph wrote: post #17
Analemma_ wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s unbelievable how far people will twist themselves in knots trying to find utilitarian justifications for what is, at the end of the day, non-consensual mutilation done for no reason other than “because tradition.”

People downvoting the above - see the cached version of the article to see why the utilitarian / public health justifications are incorrect. I agree - it's on the wrong side of history. When we look back will be shocked at what we did to ourselves and our children, simply because we could not evaluate a study correctly. In the case of infants it's certainly non-consensual In the case of adults there is an issue with…

If someone sliced off the tip of his kid’s pinky finger because he claimed God told him to do it, we’d lock him in a padded room. But the tip of the kid’s penis is not only totally fine, we’ll try to convince more people to do it!

Re: Why the “circumcision solution” to the AIDS epidemic in Africa may increase it

#22

Post by telchar »

isomorph wrote: post #15
shard972 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why we need to integrate more africans into modern science fields.

There are many African students at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine (an alumnus of which runs the World Health Organization). The discourse at that institution around circumcision, and the taboo of mentioning it alongside FGM/C without saying "circumcision is NOTHING compared to FGM" are difficult

The fallacy that MGM and FGM need to compete rhetorically is a significant hurdle in the discourse. Too many people see it as an unnecessary game of one-upmanship for some reason.

Re: Why the “circumcision solution” to the AIDS epidemic in Africa may increase it

#23

Post by spamizbad »

Theodores wrote: post #10

There is also the aspect of who has a dog in the fight and skin in the game. When you have Americans telling Africans to get themselves circumcised you do have to wonder what is really going on, particularly when there is this dubious level of 'science'. In the U.S. there is always the profit motive. Hence male circumcision is sold to parents as hygienic and beneficial, they go along with it and the hospital makes so…

For what it's worth, circumcision is slowly declining in the US[1]. We did not circumcise our son when he was born. The hospital asked us, we said no. No questions asked. We came fully prepared to justify our decision, worried that doctors would perform it by default or try to guilt us into it to avoid the spread of STDs.

[1] https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/08/22/circum...

Re: Why the “circumcision solution” to the AIDS epidemic in Africa may increase it

#27

Post by nostromo »

robotbikes wrote: post #2

Basically I agree with this sentiment "So what should we conclude? Green et al. get it right: “Before circumcising millions of men in regions with high prevalences of HIV infection, it is important to consider alternatives. A comparison of male circumcision to condom use concluded that supplying free condoms is 95 times more cost effective.”"

That's as silly as focusing on teaching abstinence. Sure, it'd work... in theory. In practice, people don't like condoms and HIV rates would be largely unchanged.

The best hope we have is to work on many fronts at the same time: education, condoms, voluntary circumcision, etc.

Re: Why the “circumcision solution” to the AIDS epidemic in Africa may increase it

#28

Post by stephengillie »

> After all, if someone knows (or thinks) that they’re getting a great big helping of medicine, they might act in various ways—whether consciously or unconsciously—that have the effect of generating positive health outcomes but which have nothing to do with the intervention itself.

That sounds strangely like the Hawthorne Effect[∆].

[∆]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawthorne_effect

Re: Why the “circumcision solution” to the AIDS epidemic in Africa may increase it

#29

Post by gus_massa »

gumby wrote: post #19
Analemma_ wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s unbelievable how far people will twist themselves in knots trying to find utilitarian justifications for what is, at the end of the day, non-consensual mutilation done for no reason other than “because tradition.”

My kid was born in a US hospital and the woman who did the circumcisions was very pushy that we should get it done ASAP. We said we'd let him decide when he became an adult and she said "but if you let him decide he'll decide not to do it" which seemed like a pretty good argument to me! I did hear from the staff that she got peed on pretty much every time.

It's seams like a very bad argument for me. What about tonsil removal ASAP? He may decide not to do that. What about a lobotomy ASAP?

Re: Why the “circumcision solution” to the AIDS epidemic in Africa may increase it

#30

Post by retsibsi »

gus_massa wrote: post #29
gumby wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My kid was born in a US hospital and the woman who did the circumcisions was very pushy that we should get it done ASAP. We said we'd let him decide when he became an adult and she said "but if you let him decide he'll decide not to do it" which seemed like a pretty good argument to me! I did hear from the staff that she got peed on pretty much every time.

It's seams like a very bad argument for me. What about tonsil removal ASAP? He may decide not to do that. What about a lobotomy ASAP?

I think you're agreeing with gumby -- they meant 'good argument' either sarcastically, or as in 'a good argument not to do it now'.
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