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Satellite images expose China's network of secret re-education camps in Xinjiang

abc.net.au

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Re: Satellite images expose China's network of secret re-education camps in Xinjiang

#31

Post by adventured »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #29

It's strange to see this thread full of outrage over China's acts and demanding they give the Uyghur their sovereignty when Xinjiang borders Afghanistan. Nothing they are doing is worse than the seventeen years that the US has held sovereignty of Afghanistan, resulting in hundreds of thousands of dead.

What would make you think there's a lack of outrage related to the US and Iraq + Afghanistan? Did you miss the massive global marches against the Iraq invasion? It's routinely brought up in discussion threads here and everywhere, and has been for 15 years now. If you want to criticize the US on human rights, the #1 go to point in every discussion is either the Iraq/Afghanistan wars (or incarceration policies in the US). It's immediately brought up, without exception. There has never been a lack of outrage about the US involvement in those countries.

Re: Satellite images expose China's network of secret re-education camps in Xinjiang

#33

Post by int_19h »

toxik wrote: post #26
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Allow them to secede? Is that a serious question? If a people no longer wants to be part of a country they should be allowed to secede. The Scottish tried it via a democratic route - which would have succeeded with a wide margin post-Brexit. Actually, the British voted to secede from the EU. The Catalans want to secede from Spain. But that's besides the point - you're almost implying that it's OK to put people in c…

The EU is not a nation state Scotland has a very unique history in this Catalunya is not gaining independence and the central Madrid government has declared their referendum illegitimate and illegal. People cannot vote their way to secession, even in democracies.

That depends on the democracy. You mentioned Scotland already (and there's nothing particularly unique about it). Then there's Canada, where the Supreme Court has specifically outlined the rules for Quebec (or any other province) to secede - but acknowledged that there is a basic right to do so. One could argue that ability to handle peaceful secession is simply the next stage in evolution of liberal democracy, and those that allow for it are more advanced than those that do not.

Re: Satellite images expose China's network of secret re-education camps in Xinjiang

#34

Post by int_19h »

sho wrote: post #17
deugtniet wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Firstly, it's not "genocide" at all - that's typical hyperbole from a very politically motivated party. His next quote reveals his definition of genocide: > “They want to erase, erase, erase your identity and our culture and to melt them into Han Chinese.” That's quite different, and also accurate. They want them to learn Chinese and acknowledge they live in China. Of course. Interesting that you suggested the Yugosl…

> They want them to learn Chinese and acknowledge they live in China. Of course.

Why "of course"? Those people aren't Chinese culturally. They were conquered.

> Interesting that you suggested the Yugoslavian "solution" which required a bloody war, in case you'd forgotten

It only required a bloody war because the (by then dominated by Serbian nationalists) central government insisted on there being one. In all the Yugoslav republics, secession was peaceful once Belgrade left them in peace. The only exception was Bosnia, and even there it's not a given that it would have blown up the way it did, if Serbia and Croatia weren't already fighting elsewhere.

Re: Satellite images expose China's network of secret re-education camps in Xinjiang

#35

Post by conistonwater »

adventured wrote: post #23
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And ATM in the US they're called detention camps for enemy combatants.

There are 40 enemy combatants held at Guantanamo. They have public legal representation and visitation rights. China has removed all human rights for over ten million Uyghur Muslims. Including freedom of movement, freedom of religion, tight restrictions on behavior, tracking of all communication and movement, restrictions on who you can meet or talk to, tracking of all Urghar family members in China or abroad, non-ex…

Nitpick: I think "please enlighten me" cheapens your otherwise fine comment, makes it personally combative where the tone of the rest of it is more factual. Just erasing the first sentence of the last paragraph would I think improve its tone. Just my opinion.

Re: Satellite images expose China's network of secret re-education camps in Xinjiang

#36

Post by throwawayinside »

isostatic wrote: post #19
MichaelMoser123 wrote: post #7

A previous report on this outrage https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/China_hidden_cam...

You can’t read that in China. DNS is intercepted and overwitten - *.bbc.co.uk is directed to a random IP address that is typically in an AS that should be somewhere in the US, at one point it was a netblock owned by facebook, although with a 20ms response in Beijing. Same applies to many other sites. To westerners, the Internet is effectively unusable until you establish a vpn. HN works though.

Can someone explain why a netblock owned by Facebook would have a 20ms response time in China? Does Facebook have Chinese servers?

Re: Satellite images expose China's network of secret re-education camps in Xinjiang

#37

Post by jacobush »

Krasnol wrote: post #14
sho wrote: post #11

It's hard to defend China here but it's also hard to see how they are supposed to handle the Uyghur question, and articles like this certainly don't give useful suggestions. What do you do with a region full of separatist agitators who frequently resort to violence and refuse to even teach their children Mandarin? Leave them to it and tolerate the bombings? Allow them to secede? There's a long history here and after…

Partial independence. Let them govern themselves. The dependency of the rest of China would have led to an automatic alignment...at some point in the past. But we're talking about China so this is not even imaginable. They'll try to put pressure until they break further, justifying even more pressure and so on. As far as I've heard they even have a special version of that credit system so there isn't even a viable es…

Oh, an electronic yellow star.

Re: Satellite images expose China's network of secret re-education camps in Xinjiang

#38

Post by _iyig »

baybal2 wrote: post #27
sho wrote: post #11

It's hard to defend China here but it's also hard to see how they are supposed to handle the Uyghur question, and articles like this certainly don't give useful suggestions. What do you do with a region full of separatist agitators who frequently resort to violence and refuse to even teach their children Mandarin? Leave them to it and tolerate the bombings? Allow them to secede? There's a long history here and after…

Do you think of this as a genuine concern? Yes, in nineties some militants managed to effectively take control of the South Xinjiang with Kashgar and mop the floor with PLA for a few months. PLA can only blame itself for letting itself fail so spectacularly. Few bombings a year? That is not enough to normally set off reaction of a district police office, let alone on a nation level. Chinese oligarchs are waging wars…

>Chinese oligarchs are waging wars on streets of Chinese cities against each others with private armies, blowing each others up every day, and the party does nothing about that.

Wait, what? Do you have a source to back up that extraordinary claim?

Re: Satellite images expose China's network of secret re-education camps in Xinjiang

#39

Post by anon1252 »

adventured wrote: post #23
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And ATM in the US they're called detention camps for enemy combatants.

There are 40 enemy combatants held at Guantanamo. They have public legal representation and visitation rights. China has removed all human rights for over ten million Uyghur Muslims. Including freedom of movement, freedom of religion, tight restrictions on behavior, tracking of all communication and movement, restrictions on who you can meet or talk to, tracking of all Urghar family members in China or abroad, non-ex…

> There are 40 enemy combatants held at Guantanamo. They have public legal representation and visitation rights.

They are being held there without a trial. They have not been tried before being sent there.

> Please enlighten me as to how that compares to what the US is currently doing with Guantanamo.

Because the basic human rights of these prisoners are not respected. Some have been jailed there for more than 10 years without any form of trial or justice. If they committed a crime they belong to a US prison, not some shady oversea jail ran by US. And let's not get started on how they were brought there. US just delegated torture to people like Egyptian or Turkish authorities. Black sites are not a legend.

While it doesn't excuse what China is doing, let's not pretend that there is nothing wrong with the situation in Guantanamo.

Re: Satellite images expose China's network of secret re-education camps in Xinjiang

#40

Post by stephen_g »

throwawayinside wrote: post #36
isostatic wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can’t read that in China. DNS is intercepted and overwitten - *.bbc.co.uk is directed to a random IP address that is typically in an AS that should be somewhere in the US, at one point it was a netblock owned by facebook, although with a 20ms response in Beijing. Same applies to many other sites. To westerners, the Internet is effectively unusable until you establish a vpn. HN works though.

Can someone explain why a netblock owned by Facebook would have a 20ms response time in China? Does Facebook have Chinese servers?

I assume the inference is that the Government is hijacking the address within China and routing it to a state-controlled server.

So they could make it plausibly look like it’s coming from a foreign IP while locally censoring the content on the site.

If you have control over the network, hijacking the whole site is easier to do than trying to MITM traffic between users and the site, since HTTPS would hinder your efforts. As long as you don’t start to do it too late that people have HSTS information saved in their browsers.

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