When Adolescents Give Up Pot, Their Cognition Quickly Improves • Hacker News Board

Re: When Adolescents Give Up Pot, Their Cognition Quickly Improves

#481

Post by eloff » Wed, Oct 31, 2018, 10:34 PM UTC

weberc2 wrote: post #478

the-pigeon wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is one of the big problems with cannabis studies. THC is known as the "active" ingredient in cannabis. However we know it's definitely not the only one. There are 113 identified cannabinoids. Most are believed to have some effect. And there's terpenes that are believed to have effects as well. So the problem is that ever single bit of cannabis has different ratios of these chemicals. Even two plants with the ex…

> The good thing is with legalization moving along we should see a lot more high quality studies that can help us figure this out. This is tangential, but it seems odd to me that many of the same people who are opposed to GMOs on the grounds that “science may have missed something” are okay with legalizing pot until science clearly demonstrates harm. Note that I’m not directing that at you (I don’t think you said any…

I've also noticed that. People are illogical.

Re: When Adolescents Give Up Pot, Their Cognition Quickly Improves

#482

Post by acjohnson55 » Wed, Oct 31, 2018, 10:34 PM UTC

framebit wrote: post #278

A therapist friend recently attended a conference where a big group of doctors and health professionals focused around adolescents presented on the link between pot and the development of psychosis and even schizophrenia in users under age 32 or something like that. I've definitely heard about this colloquially with people reacting very differently to the same strain ("we were all fine but she was just freaking out")…

I personally find that in the times I've used marijuana, there's a very small zone between no effect and feeling like I'm clinging to my sanity. I rarely partake. It reminds me of how people describe ayahuasca as being profound, but not fun.

Re: When Adolescents Give Up Pot, Their Cognition Quickly Improves

#483

Post by jwdunne » Wed, Oct 31, 2018, 10:35 PM UTC

jhayward wrote: post #468

jwdunne wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A personal anecdote of mine. A friend has schizophrenia. There was a clear point of descent from smoking cannabis. He was 13 at the time - young for schizophrenia. He's now on clozapine, a powerful antipsychotic. Whenever his judgement fails him and he smokes pot, it's weeks to months before he has to spend some time in hospital. Otherwise, he could take other, heavier drugs to excess and not require urgent hospitali…

You've illustrated the problem in anecdata: Nothing in what you said indicates that cannabis causes his episodes. It is just as likely, given the description, that the sequence that results in an episode includes the prompts that trigger him to medicate with cannabis. This is why we can't use personal experience to make public policy.

Nope. I understand that. I wouldn't say that cannabis causes schizophrenia or even episodes. It's more a story of how my friend and the people that love him came to view cannabis as it relates to his illness. It's an "understanding" if you will held by carers and primary care givers alike. If you suffer from psychosis, they make a point of warning about cannabis.

Perhaps the lapse in judgement is a sign of an oncoming episode, with weed unnecessarily blamed. But the experience of so many people and the possibility of a link deserves to be investigated with the rigour of science.

Re: When Adolescents Give Up Pot, Their Cognition Quickly Improves

#484

Post by evocatus » Wed, Oct 31, 2018, 10:38 PM UTC

zchrykng wrote: post #463

simplify wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not "defining words to have whatever meaning". I explicitly agreed with you on the technicality of innocent vs criminal ("Of course"), and brought the conversation back the actual point: Prihibition is dramatically worse because it imputes criminal charges onto people who are otherwise innocent. This is bad because these people are not a threat to society , yet with prohibition they lose their life to jailtime an…

I talking about the original comment I was responding to. You specifically said that it "imputes innocent people as criminals". This implies that they are innocent which they are not. I never said that it shouldn't be legalized/decriminalized, I'm just objecting to the usage of "innocent" to describe these people.

Fine - you are correct. These people are not "innocent" in the legal sense, in that they are in blatant violation of the law.

However I would then ask if the legal criteria of judging innocence are useful to society. My claim is that they are not, in that we label people as "guilty" and socially disadvantage them, when they may otherwise be perfectly productive members of society. Their use of cannabis in and of itself causes causes comparatively less harm to others, at least relative to harder drugs like alcohol.

Re: When Adolescents Give Up Pot, Their Cognition Quickly Improves

#485

Post by spiritcat » Wed, Oct 31, 2018, 10:38 PM UTC

xzel wrote: post #197

Waterluvian wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ADHD was pretty much the reason I struggled in school. The diagnosis gave me access to medication which turned a knob between two settings: Be social, happy, energetic, hungry, incapable of succeeding in the education system of the 90s, 00s. (default me) Be quiet, jittery, never eat, anti-social, depressed at times, but kick ass at school. Tried a lot of different ADHD medications and generally found success in simpl…

Not a doctor but someone who was in a similar boat but to me it sounds like that dosage might have been too high, or you weren't taking it regularly enough. I found that once I was able to negotiate with my doctor to a lower prescription I was able to mostly get rid of the negatives of ADHD medicines. I found in general via a lot of other friends who were prescribed in the 90s/00s that their dosages were crazy high t…

this

Re: When Adolescents Give Up Pot, Their Cognition Quickly Improves

#486

Post by msbarnett » Wed, Oct 31, 2018, 10:39 PM UTC

pdpi wrote: post #440

ghostly_s wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no evidence that marijuana is addictive or has lasting deleterious effects on intelligence. Your anecdata is not evidence.

No evidence? You mean other than the study linked in the NPR article that's at the head of this discussion?

You mean the linked NPR article that agrees it doesn't have lasting effects, but instead effects that clear up as soon as people stop using? (Although with no control group, the described study is essentially worthless)

Re: When Adolescents Give Up Pot, Their Cognition Quickly Improves

#487

Post by bsder » Wed, Oct 31, 2018, 10:51 PM UTC

mywittyname wrote: post #381

otakucode wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every study done, and likely to ever be done given ethical standards, attempting to link marijuana usage to mental illness shares the same fundamental problem which makes their results meaningless: It cannot account for self-selection. There is no way to know that those who would later be diagnosed with schizophrenia were not self medicating with marijuana, leading to the causation actually being backwards. And in th…

This same argument could be applied to many long-term medical studies: Maybe people with a pre-disposition to heart disease also hate exercising, so the link between heart disease is and lack of exercise is backwards. Yeah, that doesn't work. Ignoring the link between mental illness and marijuana use is ridiculous. A medical study doesn't need 100% confidence to be true. If we held all of medical science to that bar,…

> Ignoring the link between mental illness and marijuana use is ridiculous.

Your statement presupposes the conclusion. You need to consider two different questions:

1) Do we have correlation between marijuana usage and mental illness above and beyond the line for something as common as alcohol or cigarettes?

2) Do we have have causation between marijuana and mental illness?

Most studies barely reach an "inconclusive, needs more study" on 1). 2) isn't even in scope yet.

> Plus, we have a colloquialism for a person whose mind appears to have suffered damage from excessive marijuana usage: a burnout.

We also have a word for someone with the same issue on a different drug--alcoholic.

I'm pretty sure we have far more conclusive evidence of the mental damage that alcohol does than the damage that marijuana does.

Re: When Adolescents Give Up Pot, Their Cognition Quickly Improves

#488

Post by bsder » Wed, Oct 31, 2018, 10:55 PM UTC

framebit wrote: post #278

A therapist friend recently attended a conference where a big group of doctors and health professionals focused around adolescents presented on the link between pot and the development of psychosis and even schizophrenia in users under age 32 or something like that. I've definitely heard about this colloquially with people reacting very differently to the same strain ("we were all fine but she was just freaking out")…

> but I don't think we can treat pot as totally harmless for people under 30 and teens in particular because it seems like it's very harmful for some.

But I can say the same for alcohol and cigarettes and ...

While there are a few diehards, most sane people will not defend "marijuana is harmless"--even for adults. It's a drug; it does something to your mind; that's why you use it.

However, the increasing amount of data suggests that what harm marijuana does is in the same class as things like alcohol and cigarettes--which are legal, but regulated.

Re: When Adolescents Give Up Pot, Their Cognition Quickly Improves

#489

Post by TheSpiceIsLife » Wed, Oct 31, 2018, 11:12 PM UTC

weberc2 wrote: post #478

the-pigeon wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is one of the big problems with cannabis studies. THC is known as the "active" ingredient in cannabis. However we know it's definitely not the only one. There are 113 identified cannabinoids. Most are believed to have some effect. And there's terpenes that are believed to have effects as well. So the problem is that ever single bit of cannabis has different ratios of these chemicals. Even two plants with the ex…

> The good thing is with legalization moving along we should see a lot more high quality studies that can help us figure this out. This is tangential, but it seems odd to me that many of the same people who are opposed to GMOs on the grounds that “science may have missed something” are okay with legalizing pot until science clearly demonstrates harm. Note that I’m not directing that at you (I don’t think you said any…

I don't believe that's a fair comparison.

Firstly, marijuana taken internally has a long tradition of use. GMO's not so much. Admittedly, modern strains of marijuana may pose greater concerns.

Secondly, legalisation of recreational drugs is, I'd argue, only tangentially related to the harm they may cause by using them. Take alcohol as an example. The legalisation of recreational drugs is, I'd argue, more about a) personal-sovereignty, and b) the harm caused by the war on drugs.

For the record, I'm pro GMO when and where they makes sense, and also pro personal-sovereignty.

Re: When Adolescents Give Up Pot, Their Cognition Quickly Improves

#490

Post by TheSpiceIsLife » Wed, Oct 31, 2018, 11:15 PM UTC

docbrown wrote: post #370

galvin wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I understand it THC aggravates symptoms in people predisposed to psychosis. CBD is antipsychotic and can have a balancing effect but unfortunately growers have been selectively breeding and optimizing for high THC at the expense of CBD for decades. The result is that cannabis is more "incompatible" with certain people than it used to be.

>As I understand it THC aggravates symptoms in people predisposed to psychosis. This seems to be similar reactions to those who take doses of LSD and other psychedelic drugs.

Just to level to the playing field:

This also seems to be the case for alcohol use.

It stands to reason drug response follows a bell shaped curve, where most people fit in to the pleasant-effects most-of-the-time large area covered by the curve, and fewer people fall outside.