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Why I Am An Anarchist

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Re: Why I Am An Anarchist

#31

Post by astine »

anamax wrote: post #28
astine wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory, but not practice. Hobbes particularly, makes the point that without government, property rights are largely unenforcible. The strong will out.

> In theory, but not practice. Hobbes particularly, makes the point that without government, property rights are largely unenforcible. The strong will out. Umm, the strong will out even with govt. In fact, govt will enforce the will of the strong. Consider how eminent domain works in the US. One of the seminal cases in the US involved GM wanting to build a plant where a bunch of poor people lived. The local govt took…

At least that sheep has a vote. I dislike eminent domain abuse as much as anyone but there is a big difference between what property right abuse looks like now and what it would look like without a discernible and relatively incorrupt government.

Re: Why I Am An Anarchist

#32

Post by pbourke »

steveklabnik wrote: post #26
pbourke wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm also not an expert on Somalia - thanks for pointing out that paper. > All anarchists recognize that there needs to be significant social change before anarchism could happen I would go further and point out that there needs to be significant physiological change before some kind of idealized anarchism could happen. Humans - no, primates - organize themselves into groups and leaders emerge. A multitude of small gr…

I am on the fence regarding the 'human nature' argument. From my personal experience, when interacting in smaller groups, people are basically good. It's only when the groups get larger that things go wrong. Also it's not as though this isn't the kind of thing that anarchist thinkers have heard and 'refuted' before.[1] I'm not sure I buy the argument, but that's one reason that 'ideals' are called such, eh? > The iro…

> I've really come to dislike dualisms in politics, because the abstraction is always leaky. Anarchism is still a collectivist political philosophy, though it does focus a lot on the individual.

Agreed - I have no trouble with "here are some ideas from anarchism which might be part of a solution." But "anarchism is the solution" seems like simple extremism to me.

With reference to esr's essay, if the diagnosis is demagoguery, I think education and basic social welfare are a better prescription than anarchism.

Good discussion and interesting points - thanks!

Re: Why I Am An Anarchist

#33

Post by metageek »

steveklabnik wrote: post #23
iskander wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The modern anarchist movement hasn't been able to connect their message to anything that's relevant What is the message? I usually just hear unfocused discontent. Saying "Grrr evil government" makes for a fun sense of solidarity and good conversation as you try to screw that cute girl from your collective. It doesn't, however, lead many people to thinking up scalable alternatives to government. It seems to me that "…

If I had to sum up what I consider to be the message of anarchism, (and I've only been comfortable calling myself one fairly recently, though I've been studying it for over a year) it would be "The best way to build a society is by empowering individuals through understanding, cooperation, and support." > I usually just hear unfocused discontent. Yeah, this is the exact problem I'm talking about. It's absolutely true…

And then you see things like the absolute robbery of the American people via the bank bailout

Minor fact check: the government has gotten back almost all the money spent on TARP. The current outstanding bill is fifty billion; even that much may drop to nothing by the time the car companies and AIG finish paying off. (Source: last night's All Things Considered.)

Re: Why I Am An Anarchist

#34

Post by steveklabnik »

pbourke wrote: post #32
steveklabnik wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am on the fence regarding the 'human nature' argument. From my personal experience, when interacting in smaller groups, people are basically good. It's only when the groups get larger that things go wrong. Also it's not as though this isn't the kind of thing that anarchist thinkers have heard and 'refuted' before.[1] I'm not sure I buy the argument, but that's one reason that 'ideals' are called such, eh? > The iro…

> I've really come to dislike dualisms in politics, because the abstraction is always leaky. Anarchism is still a collectivist political philosophy, though it does focus a lot on the individual. Agreed - I have no trouble with "here are some ideas from anarchism which might be part of a solution." But "anarchism is the solution" seems like simple extremism to me. With reference to esr's essay, if the diagnosis is dem…

You too. HN is at its best in discussions like these. :)

Re: Why I Am An Anarchist

#35

Post by steveklabnik »

metageek wrote: post #33
steveklabnik wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I had to sum up what I consider to be the message of anarchism, (and I've only been comfortable calling myself one fairly recently, though I've been studying it for over a year) it would be "The best way to build a society is by empowering individuals through understanding, cooperation, and support." > I usually just hear unfocused discontent. Yeah, this is the exact problem I'm talking about. It's absolutely true…

And then you see things like the absolute robbery of the American people via the bank bailout Minor fact check: the government has gotten back almost all the money spent on TARP. The current outstanding bill is fifty billion; even that much may drop to nothing by the time the car companies and AIG finish paying off. (Source: last night's All Things Considered.)

Hey, thanks for that. I'm not as totally up on all of that as I should be, because frankly, this is one place where I'm a bit of an idealist. I disagreed with the very concept of a bailout on the grounds that failure is necessary in a capitalist economic system; without the threat of failure, we have no incentive to improve.

Frankly, the war is a bigger issue anyway.

Re: Why I Am An Anarchist

#36

Post by seles »

Another problem with democracy: lets say there are 9 people and there are some dishes that need washing, one could propose a vote to make Bob always do the dishes every time for ever. If everyone votes in their best interest then Bob is screwed. Obviously this is not fair and people would hopefully have the sense not to do this, but you can't count on people to be "fair" or even know what fair is.

This dilemma already exists, one examples is welfare. Now you may agree or disagree that welfare is good or bad, but surely there is some degree of welfare that is too much, and it will reach this limit eventually if it already hasn't.

I liked the quote: "...democracy is a terrible form of government, but eight times better than any other." -Winston Churchill

I do not agree that anarchy is the solution, although democracy has it's flaws, it does indeed seem eight times better than anything else... Or at least anything that could practically be done. I think the ideal solution would be to create a very basic set of laws that guarantees individual rights. And make any form of new laws impossible.

But how practical is this idea? The only way I can see it happening is if some rich dude buys an island and puts investment in it to get its economic foundation going. Yes I know crazy idea.

Re: Why I Am An Anarchist

#37

Post by zimbu668 »

seles wrote: post #36

Another problem with democracy: lets say there are 9 people and there are some dishes that need washing, one could propose a vote to make Bob always do the dishes every time for ever. If everyone votes in their best interest then Bob is screwed. Obviously this is not fair and people would hopefully have the sense not to do this, but you can't count on people to be "fair" or even know what fair is. This dilemma alread…

People have advocated man made islands that would reside outside the territory of any nation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasteading)

Sealand is an interesting example, some sort of British military base on a platform in the North Sea was claimed and declared an independent country, with little recognition by any established countries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand)

Re: Why I Am An Anarchist

#38

Post by swombat »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #30
swombat wrote: post #17

A pretty poor argument for gun ownership... If this was the case, then personal handguns should be made illegal, and assault weapons should be available to all with appropriate training. Handguns aren't going to do much if the US government decides to ethnically cleanse a state.

I don't think assault weapons would do much, either. Don't bring a machine gun to a tank fight.

Machine guns are pretty handy for guerilla warfare.

Tanks, not so much.

Re: Why I Am An Anarchist

#39

Post by tlots »

seles wrote: post #36

Another problem with democracy: lets say there are 9 people and there are some dishes that need washing, one could propose a vote to make Bob always do the dishes every time for ever. If everyone votes in their best interest then Bob is screwed. Obviously this is not fair and people would hopefully have the sense not to do this, but you can't count on people to be "fair" or even know what fair is. This dilemma alread…

It is interesting to draw a parallel between the philosophical idea of utilitarianism and democracy. Particularly in the sense that what is best for the 'greater good' is not always ethical.

Example: Take down a plane full of people to save a building full of people?

Re: Why I Am An Anarchist

#40

Post by pavel_lishin »

swombat wrote: post #38
pavel_lishin wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think assault weapons would do much, either. Don't bring a machine gun to a tank fight.

Machine guns are pretty handy for guerilla warfare. Tanks, not so much.

That was just an example. Others include:

* helicopters

* jet airplanes

* satellites

* artillery

* light armored vehicles

* unmanned drones

etc.

As a side note, I fucking hate HN's formatting.

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