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Why I Am An Anarchist

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Re: Why I Am An Anarchist

#21
post #12

If there was no government then gangs would take over.

In this day and age, I think it would be corporations. The void left by no government would be filled by the second most powerful entities, and those are most certainly corporations. When I read "Market Forces" (scifi) I thought, very entertaining but completely unrealistic. In the absence of government, maybe not.

If there was no government, there would be no corporations. A corporation's power is dependent on the social framework a government creates. To give an example of what I mean, modern currencies are fiat, that is, they have value because various governments have declared them to have value. With the collapse of government, one of the chief sources of power for corporations, their immense liquid wealth, would become meaningless.

That's not to say that corporate entities wouldn't be able to adapt and fill the power vacuum, but they wouldn't resemble corporations as we know them today, and they likely wouldn't resemble some of the silly concoctions that you sometimes see in SF (_Venus Incorporated_, etc.)

Re: Why I Am An Anarchist

#22
post #2

Just because a government can possibly turn ugly, it doesn't mean that no government is better. The argument is akin to "beef can give you food poisoning, so we should eradicate all cows". Everyone hates paying taxes... But anarchy? Come on. The fabric of the society that has advanced so far in the last 300 years is built on, at the very least, property rights and stability

> The fabric of the society that has advanced so far in the last 300 years is built on, at the very least, property rights and stability And an anarchist would suggest that that's exactly why the problems that we have have manifested today. Anarchism is something that's hard to have an actual discussion on. The word has too much baggage. Anarchists are viewed as utopians, there's been a lot of inter-faction arguing,…

>The modern anarchist movement hasn't been able to connect their message to anything that's relevant

What is the message? I usually just hear unfocused discontent. Saying "Grrr evil government" makes for a fun sense of solidarity and good conversation as you try to screw that cute girl from your collective. It doesn't, however, lead many people to thinking up scalable alternatives to government.

It seems to me that "Anarchism is something that's hard to have an actual discussion on" because most anarchists are either focused on (1) a perpetual oppositional stance to government (fun for them, but what's there to discuss?) or (2) creating or helping a small community. The second category is laudible but still offers almost nothing in the way of big-picture political solutions.

Re: Why I Am An Anarchist

#23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fabric of the society that has advanced so far in the last 300 years is built on, at the very least, property rights and stability And an anarchist would suggest that that's exactly why the problems that we have have manifested today. Anarchism is something that's hard to have an actual discussion on. The word has too much baggage. Anarchists are viewed as utopians, there's been a lot of inter-faction arguing,…

>The modern anarchist movement hasn't been able to connect their message to anything that's relevant What is the message? I usually just hear unfocused discontent. Saying "Grrr evil government" makes for a fun sense of solidarity and good conversation as you try to screw that cute girl from your collective. It doesn't, however, lead many people to thinking up scalable alternatives to government. It seems to me that "…

If I had to sum up what I consider to be the message of anarchism, (and I've only been comfortable calling myself one fairly recently, though I've been studying it for over a year) it would be "The best way to build a society is by empowering individuals through understanding, cooperation, and support."

> I usually just hear unfocused discontent.

Yeah, this is the exact problem I'm talking about. It's absolutely true, there's a lot of that going around. A large part of the 'why' is that if you're an anarchist, you probably care about politics a lot. And you feel like you have answers. And then you see things like the absolute robbery of the American people via the bank bailout, and the most you see... is some harsh words. Nobody's even upset. A single dollar lost is a tragedy, a million is a statistic. It's easy to become angry when you have very strong feelings, feel that you have answers, and then are totally ignored by most people, while you watch them make the exact mistakes you were trying to warn them about.

Not that any of that is an excuse; it's exactly why anarchism has continued to be marginalized. It's something that we'll have to collectively get over in order to move forward, and frankly, I'm not sure if it'll happen any time soon.

> thinking up scalable alternatives to government.

I think that one of the conclusion that you come to if you follow the anarchist line of thinking is that there is no _scalable_ alternative to government. Once you start building huge communities, the human element of humans is lost. To use the same saying twice in one post, one death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic; humans simply can't care for large numbers of other humans. Their humanity disappears. So the only way to move forward is to build a decentralized network of smaller communities, rather than yet bigger ones. The British empire fell because it was growing too large; the American one is following suit. I don't think, for example, nationalized health care can possibly work at the levels of population that America currently has. We're not only significantly larger, but much more spread out, which makes it even harder to care about what happens to those crazy people on the other coast.

> fun for them, but what's there to discuss?

It's true, there's not a lot to discuss amongst the rational, educated opponent, but here, where 'socialism' means 'The government takes my money and gives it to the black people,' we have a lot of educating to do. And once you get past the terminology, there are a lot of implementation questions. Since there have been relatively few anarchist societies[1], there are a lot of unanswered questions about how they'd be run. Then again, there's a lot of possible ways that a community could be built, and they're not all mutually exclusive. Just like different states have different laws, there are a lot of options for an anarchist community.

> The second category is laudible but still offers almost nothing in the way of big-picture political solutions.

True. I think that I've already covered that the bigger picture is a smaller picture, though.

1: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/List_of_anarc...

Re: Why I Am An Anarchist

#24
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this was downvoted, but it is true. Look at Somalia.

First of all, Somalia is not a great example of anarchy. All anarchists recognize that there needs to be significant social change before anarchism could happen; just toppling a government without changing the people leads to very, very bad things.[1] Secondly, Somalia has done really well without government, depending on who you ask. There are studies that show [2] that it's only after the UN started screwing around…

I'm also not an expert on Somalia - thanks for pointing out that paper.

> All anarchists recognize that there needs to be significant social change before anarchism could happen

I would go further and point out that there needs to be significant physiological change before some kind of idealized anarchism could happen. Humans - no, primates - organize themselves into groups and leaders emerge. A multitude of small groups tends to lead to resource conflicts and enforced conformance within the groups.

The irony of anarchism is that in almost all dimensions you are more free under a centralized government. Belong to a minority religion or sexuality? Have fun with that one in a society lacking strong laws protecting all individuals. Don't like where you're living? Have fun moving across the country. Got poisoned by a negligent food manufacturer? Too damn bad.

There is always a tension between individuality and collectivity in governments. Like communism is the insane end of the scale for the latter, anarchism is the for former.

Re: Why I Am An Anarchist

#25
I don't know about 1934, but this is what the ballot looked like in 1938. http://danariely.com/2010/10/05/hitler-nudge/

In any case, he doesn't answer the central question that arguing for anarchy inevitably provokes: once we take away the power monopoly of government, what's to stop someone from seizing power by force and being far worse than any government that preceded them?

The problem with the Hitler example is that that's pretty much exactly what Hitler did. Weimar Germany was far from a model of sane government; it felt powerless after the war, it was crippled economically and it lacked real leadership. The spirit of nationalism that had made Germany such a powerful force before WWI had been broken by its defeat, and Hitler took power by stepping in to fill the void that it left.

In other words, the Hitler example is exactly what a sane government prevents. The problem there wasn't the fact that there was a government in power; it was that there wasn't one. Anarchy was the problem, not the solution.

Re: Why I Am An Anarchist

#26
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, Somalia is not a great example of anarchy. All anarchists recognize that there needs to be significant social change before anarchism could happen; just toppling a government without changing the people leads to very, very bad things.[1] Secondly, Somalia has done really well without government, depending on who you ask. There are studies that show [2] that it's only after the UN started screwing around…

I'm also not an expert on Somalia - thanks for pointing out that paper. > All anarchists recognize that there needs to be significant social change before anarchism could happen I would go further and point out that there needs to be significant physiological change before some kind of idealized anarchism could happen. Humans - no, primates - organize themselves into groups and leaders emerge. A multitude of small gr…

I am on the fence regarding the 'human nature' argument. From my personal experience, when interacting in smaller groups, people are basically good. It's only when the groups get larger that things go wrong. Also it's not as though this isn't the kind of thing that anarchist thinkers have heard and 'refuted' before.[1] I'm not sure I buy the argument, but that's one reason that 'ideals' are called such, eh?

> The irony of anarchism is that in almost all dimensions you are more free under a centralized government.

While I agree with your comment in spirit, there's a lot of real-world problems with this. Ask anyone with a minority sexuality if they feel protected by the law. And it's not just 'gay marriage' that I'm talking about, there's communities that are even further marginalized, like the polyamory community. Their lifestyle is explicitly illegal... Basically, all I'm saying is that this idea of equal protection under the law is the exact same as equal protection under anarchism: only an ideal.

> Like communism is the insane end of the scale for the latter, anarchism is the for former.

I've really come to dislike dualisms in politics, because the abstraction is always leaky. Anarchism is still a collectivist political philosophy, though it does focus a lot on the individual...

1: http://anarchism.pageabode.com/afaq/secA2.html#seca215

Re: Why I Am An Anarchist

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The modern anarchist movement hasn't been able to connect their message to anything that's relevant What is the message? I usually just hear unfocused discontent. Saying "Grrr evil government" makes for a fun sense of solidarity and good conversation as you try to screw that cute girl from your collective. It doesn't, however, lead many people to thinking up scalable alternatives to government. It seems to me that "…

If I had to sum up what I consider to be the message of anarchism, (and I've only been comfortable calling myself one fairly recently, though I've been studying it for over a year) it would be "The best way to build a society is by empowering individuals through understanding, cooperation, and support." > I usually just hear unfocused discontent. Yeah, this is the exact problem I'm talking about. It's absolutely true…

When you say you are an anarchist, what exactly do you believe? For example, do you believe in a police force?

My problem is this. I agree a utopian society is an anarchist society. But it seems to me that the only way anarchy can work is in a world where resources aren't scarce.

As soon as resources become scarce, you have conflict. As soon as you have conflict, you need a way to resolve it fairly.

I just can't understand the "how" of anarchy.

Re: Why I Am An Anarchist

#28
post #13
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not think he is arguing against property rights. I think that forms of anarchy allow for property rights and other individual liberties.

In theory, but not practice. Hobbes particularly, makes the point that without government, property rights are largely unenforcible. The strong will out.

> In theory, but not practice. Hobbes particularly, makes the point that without government, property rights are largely unenforcible. The strong will out.

Umm, the strong will out even with govt. In fact, govt will enforce the will of the strong.

Consider how eminent domain works in the US. One of the seminal cases in the US involved GM wanting to build a plant where a bunch of poor people lived. The local govt took the land under eminent domain and basically gave it to GM. (It's the "poletown" case if you're looking for cites.)

Yes, you get to vote, but as they say, democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting over what to have for dinner.

Re: Why I Am An Anarchist

#29
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I had to sum up what I consider to be the message of anarchism, (and I've only been comfortable calling myself one fairly recently, though I've been studying it for over a year) it would be "The best way to build a society is by empowering individuals through understanding, cooperation, and support." > I usually just hear unfocused discontent. Yeah, this is the exact problem I'm talking about. It's absolutely true…

When you say you are an anarchist, what exactly do you believe? For example, do you believe in a police force? My problem is this. I agree a utopian society is an anarchist society. But it seems to me that the only way anarchy can work is in a world where resources aren't scarce. As soon as resources become scarce, you have conflict. As soon as you have conflict, you need a way to resolve it fairly. I just can't unde…

> what exactly do you believe?

This is something that I'm still actively exploring. I only have an understanding from a high level on all of this; the details are quite fuzzy to me.

To give you some background, I'm coming from what's basically the a hardcore right-libertarian place. However, eventually, I've come around to realizing that the world is a bit more complex than "remove the rules and everything will work out." I was only thinking about some of the rules, I had just assumed that capitalism was the way things _had_ to be. The more that I compared my beliefs about capitalism to my former beliefs about religion, the more I came to understand that I believed in those things simply because they were stated to me as fact for a long period of time.

Anyway, what I believe: I don't really believe in a police force, to be totally honest. I've said before that "I'm a middle class white kid from the suburbs, so if I don't like the police, I can only imagine what it must be like for others." I try to avoid as much contact with police as possible, because they only cause more problems. I think that social constructs hold society together much more than the threat of punishment. People respond much better to positive reinforcement than negative. Authority will always be abused.

In general, I believe the world would be a better place if we tried working together rather than fighting. If people actually knew their neighbors and built communities. If more people gave rather than took. I also think that we've been conditioned to be adversarial, and that it can be unlearned, albeit with hard work.

I agree a lot with raganwald: http://raganwald.posterous.com/hello-my-name-is-reginald-and...

I also recognize that we're not living in such a place, and so I try to live in a way that's closest to my ideals, knowing that I'll never get there. My house is run collectively, I try to support organizations that do good, I attempt to help others as much as possible. I think that entrepreneurship is a great path for doing a lot of good for society.

> As soon as you have conflict, you need a way to resolve it fairly.

I think that you underestimate how different an anarchic society would be, and overestimate how scarce goods really are. But in any case, don't think that anarchy means no conflict resolution, as the saying goes, "anarchy means no rulers, not no rules." Anarchists believe in direct democracy, generally speaking. A lot of these kinds of details are the ones that haven't been worked out yet, or would differ from one community to the next.

Re: Why I Am An Anarchist

#30
post #17

A pretty poor argument for gun ownership... If this was the case, then personal handguns should be made illegal, and assault weapons should be available to all with appropriate training. Handguns aren't going to do much if the US government decides to ethnically cleanse a state.

I don't think assault weapons would do much, either. Don't bring a machine gun to a tank fight.
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