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US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

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Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#191

Post by code_duck »

tropo wrote: post #184
monocasa wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except being undocumented isn't actually a crime, so they're not committing an illegal act.

I didn't say they were committing an illegal act, although most are. I just said that "illegal alien" is the only correct term under our law. The vast majority are not undocumented. They have fraudulent documentation. Identity theft is not a victimless crime. Overstaying a visa isn't a crime, but getting a visa with the intent to overstay it is a crime. Jumping the border is obviously a crime. Those two methods of en…

Coming to the US to pick crops is a victimless ‘crime’. If anyone, the bigger criminals are the US citizens who own the companies, large and small, who hire undocumented workers and know full well they are doing it.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#192

Post by thewhitetulip »

mtgx wrote: post #46
thewhitetulip wrote: post #10

I'm from India and every ejection since 1950s has been called rigged by the Opposition. The party which is in power now, has written a book on EVM tampering and the party which was in power for most of the time have rubbished EvM tampering. Now that roles have reversed, so have their claims. Coming to the point, isn't US using paperballots? All the papers in my nation say US holds elections via paperballots and not E…

These back and forth accusations could stop if they actually implemented automatic (random) audits, so that all elections would be verified, without anyone first having to "call" an election stolen first, before the audit would have to happen.

True. But then, there is a concept called VVPATs. Verified paprt trail on which we get a receipt of whom we voted for

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#193

Post by thewhitetulip »

mikeash wrote: post #28
thewhitetulip wrote: post #10

I'm from India and every ejection since 1950s has been called rigged by the Opposition. The party which is in power now, has written a book on EVM tampering and the party which was in power for most of the time have rubbished EvM tampering. Now that roles have reversed, so have their claims. Coming to the point, isn't US using paperballots? All the papers in my nation say US holds elections via paperballots and not E…

I don’t think I’ve seen a paper ballot since I voted absentee in 2004. Why do electronic machines exist? The charitable interpretation is that they were chosen in the aftermath of the disastrous 2000 election because they remove ambiguity and error. The less charitable interpretation is that they’re used because they’re easier to screw with. Who verifies them? Mostly the companies who make them.

Wow, and here I was, reading Indian news articles whoch said "When nations like US, UK are holding elections via ballot papers then why are we using EVMs"

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#194

Post by thewhitetulip »

monocasa wrote: post #22
thewhitetulip wrote: post #10

I'm from India and every ejection since 1950s has been called rigged by the Opposition. The party which is in power now, has written a book on EVM tampering and the party which was in power for most of the time have rubbished EvM tampering. Now that roles have reversed, so have their claims. Coming to the point, isn't US using paperballots? All the papers in my nation say US holds elections via paperballots and not E…

> Coming to the point, isn't US using paperballots? All the papers in my nation say US holds elections via paperballots and not EVMs. It's different on a per state/municipality basis. Some are paper, some are EVM. We're trending towards EVM despite warnings from computer security researchers.

EVMs with a verifiable paper trail should help. We have VVPats in India where we get receipts after voting. Plus Election Commission does/can do a random audit on constituencies.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#195

Post by thewhitetulip »

everdev wrote: post #43
thewhitetulip wrote: post #10

I'm from India and every ejection since 1950s has been called rigged by the Opposition. The party which is in power now, has written a book on EVM tampering and the party which was in power for most of the time have rubbished EvM tampering. Now that roles have reversed, so have their claims. Coming to the point, isn't US using paperballots? All the papers in my nation say US holds elections via paperballots and not E…

Calling the opposition "fake" is an old political practice used as both valid criticism and deception. Unfortunately, the claim sounds the same even if the facts are not. Unfortunately, I think politicians know that most people don't have the time or resources to fact check and claims don't need to be supported by much evidence to be believed.

Calling everything fake has become a fashion. I started watching Last Week Tonight recently and it is scary, the lengths to which politicians lie about fake news!

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#196

Post by code_duck »

tropo wrote: post #186
monocasa wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I just said that "illegal alien" is the only correct term under our law. Except it isn't. https://www.politifact.com/texas/statements/2018/may/09/stev... It appears in section headers that don't have legal weight behind them, and in reference to aliens who have additionally been convicted of at least on felony. Just saying something doesn't make it true.

Not that politifact is trustworthy, but OK, which alternative do you like? That article lists "unauthorized aliens", "inadmissible aliens" and "deportable aliens". Undocumented is when somebody loses their wallet, so that won't do. These people generally have illegal documentation, possibly even matching your documentation.

“Undocumented is when somebody loses their wallet, so that won't do.”

So, these terms have legal definitions. You may wish to inform yourself a lot better before having such debates.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#197

Post by dragonwriter »

mikeash wrote: post #28
thewhitetulip wrote: post #10

I'm from India and every ejection since 1950s has been called rigged by the Opposition. The party which is in power now, has written a book on EVM tampering and the party which was in power for most of the time have rubbished EvM tampering. Now that roles have reversed, so have their claims. Coming to the point, isn't US using paperballots? All the papers in my nation say US holds elections via paperballots and not E…

I don’t think I’ve seen a paper ballot since I voted absentee in 2004. Why do electronic machines exist? The charitable interpretation is that they were chosen in the aftermath of the disastrous 2000 election because they remove ambiguity and error. The less charitable interpretation is that they’re used because they’re easier to screw with. Who verifies them? Mostly the companies who make them.

> I don’t think I’ve seen a paper ballot since I voted absentee in 2004.

I've voted in person consistently, and never seen anything else. Different jurisdictions in the US make different choices.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#198

Post by jcrawfordor »

bo1024 wrote: post #61
jcrawfordor wrote: post #20

My county of over 600k people has a Bureau of Elections staff of five, and none of them are really technical people, they just do basic work on the machines and train the temp staff hired for elections. They rely on a contractor to handle just about every aspect of the technology, including the pollbook system, and that company is a larger operation but still the kind of operation where I've heard the elections staff…

I agree to some extent, but paper ballots seem to solve a lot of these expertise problems (in addition to all the security and reliability ones).

Counties cannot afford to hand-tally paper ballots for the same reasons they can't afford to hire security expertise.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#199

Post by masonic »

code_duck wrote: post #191
tropo wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't say they were committing an illegal act, although most are. I just said that "illegal alien" is the only correct term under our law. The vast majority are not undocumented. They have fraudulent documentation. Identity theft is not a victimless crime. Overstaying a visa isn't a crime, but getting a visa with the intent to overstay it is a crime. Jumping the border is obviously a crime. Those two methods of en…

Coming to the US to pick crops is a victimless ‘crime’. If anyone, the bigger criminals are the US citizens who own the companies, large and small, who hire undocumented workers and know full well they are doing it.

Less than one half of one percent are "picking crops".

Most work in hospitality and food prep, indoors.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#200

Post by code_duck »

masonic wrote: post #199
code_duck wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coming to the US to pick crops is a victimless ‘crime’. If anyone, the bigger criminals are the US citizens who own the companies, large and small, who hire undocumented workers and know full well they are doing it.

Less than one half of one percent are "picking crops". Most work in hospitality and food prep, indoors.

Are you saying there is some qualitative difference there, or just adding work examples? Do you use the scare quotes to mean people who come to the US to work cleaning hotels are victimizing US citizens by doing so? Or that you disagree, because I’m wrong and people who prep sandwiches and clean apartments are more to blame for their unlawful employment than their employers?

Why would it matter that they're indoors? I’m really confused by what you choose to emphasize.

I find it unlikely that agricultural employees make up .5% of Central American immigrants in the US at any given time. That figure sounds low.

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