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US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

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Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#181

Post by dragonwriter »

tracker1 wrote: post #179
tareqak wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you went in to vote one year, but for one reason or another some way some how you were improperly registered and were unable to vote that day, then would you be alright if someone tried to console you with the words, "It's alright, you only have one vote which is so incredibly small that it's statistically insignificant"? I understand that we shouldn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, but I think we shoul…

I'm just not sure that I understand the resistance to ANY attempt to require identification to vote. It doesn't have to be tethered to the ballot, and beyond that there could even be mobile id/registration platforms made available. The documents you present for ID shouldn't be any more than you should present to vote... it's just a shortcut. Voter fraud is a significant issue... in many districts significantly more t…

> Voter fraud is a significant issue...

No one, including partisan commissions established for no other purpose than validating this claim, has been able to provide evidence supporting this.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#182

Post by dragonwriter »

tropo wrote: post #174
code_duck wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“illegals” is a ridiculous and perjorative term. It’s not possible to be an illegal human being. Strange how people who supposedly abhor ‘big government’ and ‘over regulation’ give vast credence to government’s power to permit people to exist within an area or not.

The only fully correct term, as used in our laws and in numerous Supreme Court rulings, is "illegal alien". Shortening that to "aliens" causes confusion with legal aliens (people legitimately here with a valid visa, etc.) and of course with fictional creatures from space. Without the power to permit people to exist within an area or not, one can not have any sort of social aid. Several billion people would show up to…

> The only fully correct term, as used in our laws and in numerous Supreme Court rulings, is "illegal alien".

Incorrect. While numerous Supreme Court decisions use “illegal alien” they do not do so exclusively, e.g., Plyler v. Doe (1981) uses, at a minimum, all of (directly, ignoring uses that occur only in quoted material, and consistently reflecting singular though some terms are used in both singular and plural, and some only plural, forms) “illegal alien”, “undocumented child”, “undocumented alien”, “undocumented resident alien”, and “illegal entrant”.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#183

Post by tareqak »

tracker1 wrote: post #179
tareqak wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you went in to vote one year, but for one reason or another some way some how you were improperly registered and were unable to vote that day, then would you be alright if someone tried to console you with the words, "It's alright, you only have one vote which is so incredibly small that it's statistically insignificant"? I understand that we shouldn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, but I think we shoul…

I'm just not sure that I understand the resistance to ANY attempt to require identification to vote. It doesn't have to be tethered to the ballot, and beyond that there could even be mobile id/registration platforms made available. The documents you present for ID shouldn't be any more than you should present to vote... it's just a shortcut. Voter fraud is a significant issue... in many districts significantly more t…

If

1) There is a way for all Americans (including the poor, minorities, indigenous tribes, the homeless, and people without a physical address) to obtain this ID without any prejudice, opportunity cost, or privacy implications 2) There is significant political will to rolling out 1)

Then I'm with you. If not as it currently is the case, then voter ID is a means of disenfranchising the vulnerable groups I mentioned in 1) and I'm opposed.

Update: You might argue that I'm contradicting myself in that voter ID law would be good and ensuring that the groups I mentioned were protected in 1) would be asking for perfection. My rebuttal would be that any scheme that allows for legal disenfranchisement of otherwise legal voters is not good at all.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#184

Post by tropo »

monocasa wrote: post #180
tropo wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only fully correct term, as used in our laws and in numerous Supreme Court rulings, is "illegal alien". Shortening that to "aliens" causes confusion with legal aliens (people legitimately here with a valid visa, etc.) and of course with fictional creatures from space. Without the power to permit people to exist within an area or not, one can not have any sort of social aid. Several billion people would show up to…

Except being undocumented isn't actually a crime, so they're not committing an illegal act.

I didn't say they were committing an illegal act, although most are. I just said that "illegal alien" is the only correct term under our law.

The vast majority are not undocumented. They have fraudulent documentation. Identity theft is not a victimless crime.

Overstaying a visa isn't a crime, but getting a visa with the intent to overstay it is a crime. Jumping the border is obviously a crime. Those two methods of entry cover the vast majority. There aren't a lot of people who intended to leave and then just... forgot the visa expiration date or something.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#185

Post by monocasa »

tropo wrote: post #184
monocasa wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except being undocumented isn't actually a crime, so they're not committing an illegal act.

I didn't say they were committing an illegal act, although most are. I just said that "illegal alien" is the only correct term under our law. The vast majority are not undocumented. They have fraudulent documentation. Identity theft is not a victimless crime. Overstaying a visa isn't a crime, but getting a visa with the intent to overstay it is a crime. Jumping the border is obviously a crime. Those two methods of en…

> I just said that "illegal alien" is the only correct term under our law.

Except it isn't.

https://www.politifact.com/texas/statements/2018/may/09/stev...

It appears in section headers that don't have legal weight behind them, and in reference to aliens who have additionally been convicted of at least on felony.

Just saying something doesn't make it true.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#186

Post by tropo »

monocasa wrote: post #185
tropo wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't say they were committing an illegal act, although most are. I just said that "illegal alien" is the only correct term under our law. The vast majority are not undocumented. They have fraudulent documentation. Identity theft is not a victimless crime. Overstaying a visa isn't a crime, but getting a visa with the intent to overstay it is a crime. Jumping the border is obviously a crime. Those two methods of en…

> I just said that "illegal alien" is the only correct term under our law. Except it isn't. https://www.politifact.com/texas/statements/2018/may/09/stev... It appears in section headers that don't have legal weight behind them, and in reference to aliens who have additionally been convicted of at least on felony. Just saying something doesn't make it true.

Not that politifact is trustworthy, but OK, which alternative do you like? That article lists "unauthorized aliens", "inadmissible aliens" and "deportable aliens". Undocumented is when somebody loses their wallet, so that won't do. These people generally have illegal documentation, possibly even matching your documentation.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#187

Post by monocasa »

tropo wrote: post #186
monocasa wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I just said that "illegal alien" is the only correct term under our law. Except it isn't. https://www.politifact.com/texas/statements/2018/may/09/stev... It appears in section headers that don't have legal weight behind them, and in reference to aliens who have additionally been convicted of at least on felony. Just saying something doesn't make it true.

Not that politifact is trustworthy, but OK, which alternative do you like? That article lists "unauthorized aliens", "inadmissible aliens" and "deportable aliens". Undocumented is when somebody loses their wallet, so that won't do. These people generally have illegal documentation, possibly even matching your documentation.

Don't be so combative. You're the one spreading the falsehood that "The only fully correct term, as used in our laws and in numerous Supreme Court rulings, is "illegal alien"" despite having no real evidence of that.

> Undocumented is when somebody loses their wallet, so that won't do.

No, because someone without their wallet will still be documented in the databases.

> These people generally have illegal documentation, possibly even matching your documentation.

Do I need to track down how that's false too? You really seem to enjoy making statements with nothing to back them up.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#188

Post by cmurf »

int_19h wrote: post #103
cmurf wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's essentially no one saying there should be no identity verification, just like there's no meaningful voter impersonation fraud. The complaint is the fairness of the burden to obtain acceptable ID, for voting. In Alabama, over a dozen driver's license office closures mean people in overwhelmingly black counties had a vastly high burden to obtain ID than people living in predominately white counties. There are a…

> Anyway, people have a right to vote. It is not a privilege. Actually, in US, it is a privilege. Look up the Constitution - the original one doesn't define any right to vote at all (which was a necessary component of the 3/5th Compromise); all it says is that the states must have a "republican form of government". And all subsequent amendments specify what can't be used as a basis to deny the right to vote. Aside fr…

I disagree with your interpretation. This is a more compelling argument: https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/09/voting-...

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#189

Post by njarboe »

zanny wrote: post #111
njarboe wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Because when you say it out loud, it sounds ridiculous to be a government with no idea who your people actually are." In the US, one of the founding principles, different from all (almost all?) others at the time, was the people create the government to govern for them. Government was not suppose to be a system where the government (ie. the monarchy) rules and owns the people. I don't think it is such a bad idea tha…

There is a substantial difference between owning your people and having a consistent system tracking their existence. My major issue with the thought process that gets you to "having a national is a violation of my freedom" is that you only want to be invisible if the government is an actively hostile entity to you that you want to avoid. It is also the principal justification to the right to bear arms - you arm the…

I think the idea was/is that government should be as small and powerless as possible so one does not even have to really worry about it much. Why worry about politics if politicians don't have any power. People in the US are doing things to improve the world they live in constantly but in spheres of voluntary cooperation outside of politics. Many/Most? don't want the government to try and do too much, just stay out of the way.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#190

Post by dragonwriter »

int_19h wrote: post #103
cmurf wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's essentially no one saying there should be no identity verification, just like there's no meaningful voter impersonation fraud. The complaint is the fairness of the burden to obtain acceptable ID, for voting. In Alabama, over a dozen driver's license office closures mean people in overwhelmingly black counties had a vastly high burden to obtain ID than people living in predominately white counties. There are a…

> Anyway, people have a right to vote. It is not a privilege. Actually, in US, it is a privilege. Look up the Constitution - the original one doesn't define any right to vote at all (which was a necessary component of the 3/5th Compromise); all it says is that the states must have a "republican form of government". And all subsequent amendments specify what can't be used as a basis to deny the right to vote. Aside fr…

> And all subsequent amendments specify what can't be used as a basis to deny the right to vote.

Which explicitly labels it a right, as well as restricting the conditions under which that right may be restricted. PPP

So, it is explicitly a right.

And it has repeatedly been found to be a fundamental right (and thus subject to strict scrutiny.)

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