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The cost of keeping Singapore squeaky clean

bbc.com

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Re: The cost of keeping Singapore squeaky clean

#11

Post by Retric »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #9
jplayer01 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But...but freedom. It's aggravating to see how many Americans think individual freedom should absolutely and automatically trump every other concern.

It's aggravating to see how many people regardless of nationality would willingly trade away their freedom for some temporary gain and encourage others to do likewise. The next government can lay off all the litter picker-uppers but you won't get your freedom back in return.

Singapore has a net migration rate of 13.1 migrant(s)/1,000 population where the US only has 2.86 suggesting may more people find it an attractive destination than an area to escape from.

Some parts of the US restrict which color you can paint your house. That might seem like a huge negative for some, but plenty of people are fine with this tradeoff becase they care more for restricting the colors of others than they care about maintaining their personal freedom at any cost.

Expanding that to a wide range of similar issues may seem draconian, but it’s not without benifit. Which IMO is why Singapore does not have a mass exodus.

Re: The cost of keeping Singapore squeaky clean

#12

Post by CPLX »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #9
jplayer01 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But...but freedom. It's aggravating to see how many Americans think individual freedom should absolutely and automatically trump every other concern.

It's aggravating to see how many people regardless of nationality would willingly trade away their freedom for some temporary gain and encourage others to do likewise. The next government can lay off all the litter picker-uppers but you won't get your freedom back in return.

There’s more than one kind of freedom.

Sometimes I might seek the freedom to do whatever the hell I want.

Sometimes I might seek the freedom to not have to experience you doing whatever the hell you want.

Re: The cost of keeping Singapore squeaky clean

#13

Post by tom_ »

maxxxxx wrote: post #5
ronilan wrote: post #3

What you should wonder is if this model is desirable in any term.

From what I have heard from people living there most people seem OK with it.

People that aren’t ok with it probably move away, or never move there in the first place.

(But this is in principle self-balancing, so even if the people that live there are unrepresentative, perhaps it doesn’t matter.)

Re: The cost of keeping Singapore squeaky clean

#14

Post by latch »

maxxxxx wrote: post #2

Singapore is an interesting case study how a well-run government that restricts a lot of freedoms can work remarkably well. I wonder if this model is sustainable long term.

I lived in Singapore for a couple years and I can say that, at least as an expat, you hardly feel restrictions. Of the Singaporeans I know, locals from young to old, they all love it.

Like all countries, it has its issues, but consider:

- Freedom of religion particularly stands out

- It has great and affordable health care

- It's safe

- Very easy to do business

I could list more. Maybe freedom means something different to you than to me. Like I said, there's definitely room for improvement, but I think they're doing way more right than wrong.

Re: The cost of keeping Singapore squeaky clean

#15

Post by justtopost »

mkstowegnv wrote: post #10
maxxxxx wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I have heard from people living there most people seem OK with it.

All over the world there are testosterone poisoned males engaging in as much obnoxious behavior as they can get away with (e.g. riding motorcycles with no mufflers). Particulary coming from the Southern US it is absolutely delightful to be in a place where "rednecks" are completley suppressed.

Then move? I like my motorcycle and my testosterone. Thanks for male shaming.

Edit. Thanks for the downvotes for pointing out literal bigotry. Wtf hn.

Re: The cost of keeping Singapore squeaky clean

#16

Post by mediumdeviation »

Sureai wrote: post #6

I am right now in Singapore for a visit and personally I don't have the feeling of a very clean city. There are some things that drive me crazy as a european. I went to a hawker with some Singaporeans and we got new disposable chopsticks for every dish. Wich means I ended up with three pairs of chopsticks. All plates were disposable. Either of plastic or styrofoam. Like in the article we didn't clean our trays, a cle…

Regarding disposable plates and utensils, I actually don't see much of them unless you ask for takeout. I suspect in the area you're in the cost of dish washing is more expensive than the cost of plates and refuse collection. A tax on disposables would be great.

Singapore is actually getting better on reducing disposables, though slower than I would like. Cashiers don't double bag items anymore, and try to pack as much into one as possible. Paper takeout boxes and bags have replaced styrofoam and plastic in many places, and it's currently trendy to not offer plastic straws for drinks.

Another reason for disposable chopsticks, (though this applies more in China, Taiwan and Malaysia) is that the customers may not trust the hygiene of the place they're eating in. Disposable chopsticks are cut with the centers intact so it's impossible to put them back together and resell them.

Re: The cost of keeping Singapore squeaky clean

#17

Post by whoadude73fuf »

justtopost wrote: post #15
mkstowegnv wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All over the world there are testosterone poisoned males engaging in as much obnoxious behavior as they can get away with (e.g. riding motorcycles with no mufflers). Particulary coming from the Southern US it is absolutely delightful to be in a place where "rednecks" are completley suppressed.

Then move? I like my motorcycle and my testosterone. Thanks for male shaming. Edit. Thanks for the downvotes for pointing out literal bigotry. Wtf hn.

Seriously... I was very surprised at this response; I get the feeling the author would take great offense at being called an estrogen chugging pseudo-male / individuals who want to live far away from people like the author... despite the rhetoric being roughly the same. It's also disproportionately antagonistic of other's choices given the conversation at hand.

Re: The cost of keeping Singapore squeaky clean

#18

Post by _0nac »

latch wrote: post #14
maxxxxx wrote: post #2

Singapore is an interesting case study how a well-run government that restricts a lot of freedoms can work remarkably well. I wonder if this model is sustainable long term.

I lived in Singapore for a couple years and I can say that, at least as an expat, you hardly feel restrictions. Of the Singaporeans I know, locals from young to old, they all love it. Like all countries, it has its issues, but consider: - Freedom of religion particularly stands out - It has great and affordable health care - It's safe - Very easy to do business I could list more. Maybe freedom means something differe…

I suspect your sample size was heavily biased to your own social class. Singapore is ruthlessly capitalist, and can be a terrible place to be if you're poor or a foreign worker.

One Straits Times (local Pravda) story I recall was about one of those old ladies who cleans up in hawker centres, earning on the order of S$100/month. This is way below a living wage, even in Singapore, and there's no state pension in Singapore either, so this was the sum total of her income. Because she couldn't afford an apartment, she slept (illegally) on the "void deck" (ground floor, exposed to elements) of an HDB housing block.

None of this was news, mind you -- the news was the fact that somebody stole her life savings of $50 from a cookie jar, and this is not permissible in squeaky-clean Singapore.

Many maids are also kept in modern-day slavery, working 365/24/7 and literally locked into the apartment so they don't run off and get pregnant, in which case the maid is forcibly repatriated and the owner is fined.

More eye-opening reading here: http://twc2.org.sg/

Re: The cost of keeping Singapore squeaky clean

#19

Post by testcross »

Sureai wrote: post #6

I am right now in Singapore for a visit and personally I don't have the feeling of a very clean city. There are some things that drive me crazy as a european. I went to a hawker with some Singaporeans and we got new disposable chopsticks for every dish. Wich means I ended up with three pairs of chopsticks. All plates were disposable. Either of plastic or styrofoam. Like in the article we didn't clean our trays, a cle…

Singapore is not very good at recycling or limiting the products of individuals. On the other hand, they recycle 100% of garbage from building constructions. Which is a pretty big volume of garbage.

Re: The cost of keeping Singapore squeaky clean

#20

Post by ggm »

Moist Tropical climate + concrete == mould.

Hawker style food + stalls with no trashcan == rubbish.

I love Singapore, but like Bangkok, Taipei, Hong Kong, its a constant battle to deal with nature, and social behaviour.

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