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Is HN only about saying nice things about everything?

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Re: Is HN only about saying nice things about everything?

#91

Post by richardw »

akadien wrote: post #37

Dude, it's karma points on HN. A number on a server somewhere that has no bearing whatsoever on your real life. Have some perspective.

I think the karma is irrelevant, but the lessons aren't. Often the lessons we learn on online forums can carry onto our real lives. Rather get spiteful, rude or angry and be downvoted hard, than lose your job or mess up your relationship.

Many times I've seen someone online be piled-on, and while I've felt sorry for them I've often seen them come back much more respectful.

Re: Is HN only about saying nice things about everything?

#92

Post by johnnygood »

I decided to look through your comment history to see what postings you've been downvoted for. There's a decently common theme. Usually they have flippant remarks and/or curse words.

"Microsoft what have you been smoking?"; "You are so fuckin wrong"; "OMG so much stupidity."; "Windows Phone 7 is a really good vapor-ware. And ridiculous patents + broken patent system are the key to success" (when Windows Phone 7 had already shipped to OEMs); "I guess if they get killed, they had it coming."; "(YAWN) You could have written that code in most languages with most databases years ago!"

We're looking for a level of respect that isn't shown by those phrases. The Hacker News Guidelines (http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html) are a good place to start:

* Be civil. Don't say things you wouldn't say in a face to face conversation.

It's common to bash people on the internet, but we tend not to like that here. We do disagree here. Recently there was a large thread on Ubercab and whether their service is so ethical and responsible. Lots of people with lots of differing viewpoints were upvoted. They raised issues (rather than just being blindly for or against someone). It was enlightening to see the nuance and insight that lots of different people brought to the discussion and how complex the issue was. You can disagree without attacking a person.

* When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. E.g. "That is an idiotic thing to say; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3."

Comments that include things like "OMG so much stupidity" just make people feel attacked and defensive. The statement doesn't add to the discussion and just makes things more combative. It's as if you're trying to discourage people from disagreeing with you because you'll call them stupid if they do. "I think this is important to consider"; "OMG, you're just so stupid". It isn't helpful. Plus, there are plenty of places on the internet if your interest is flamewars.

* Resist complaining about being downmodded. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading.

Re: Is HN only about saying nice things about everything?

#93

Post by alnayyir »

armandososa wrote: post #85
alnayyir wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's not the only one discontented with the state of the community. It's gotten so bad here that I can't convince half the programmers I know that this place is any better than a cult locked in a warehouse. Almost no one I know takes anything anybody says here seriously, even if the content stream is marginally better than the alternatives. The focus has shifted from intelligent and thoughtful writing seeded by your…

I found hacker news amazing and comforting. But if I was not happy here and if I ever found it to be only slighter better than the next alternative I'll just move on. Really, it's sad to be in a community where you don't actually feel good.

Nothing better out there in terms of news or community that I've found so far. I'm sure I could find nicer people, but it wouldn't be a constructive use of my time.

Re: Is HN only about saying nice things about everything?

#94

Post by alnayyir »

Robin_Message wrote: post #90
alnayyir wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's not the only one discontented with the state of the community. It's gotten so bad here that I can't convince half the programmers I know that this place is any better than a cult locked in a warehouse. Almost no one I know takes anything anybody says here seriously, even if the content stream is marginally better than the alternatives. The focus has shifted from intelligent and thoughtful writing seeded by your…

Your comment is frankly a load of crap. (I would be more polite if we were in person, but then I would have been able to interrupt and say, "Oh hang on a minute", when you came out with some rubbish like "the situation here is untenable.") It's not untenable. If you don't like the community, leave! If you know a lot of people who are disenchanted with hackernews, great! Start something new for you to chat. You could…

It is untenable, the community will disintegrate if this place keeps getting invaded with marketers and MBAs who've never actually built anything and nobody has any constructive criticism.

I mean really, the instant youtube/$SITE_WITHOUT_AJAX_SEARCH thing is just the beast parodying itself and doing my work for me.

The complete lack of any real sound discussion or criticism regarding the absurd fad is exemplary of what I'm talking about.

If the goal is to gather, educate, and grow people who might build something soon as well as groom a community of hackers, then yes, it is untenable.

To claim otherwise is disingenuous.

I don't give a damn if you're polite. I care if you're correct and have something to contribute.

I could detail and log the ridiculousness, but there's no point. Take a gander through my comments and look at what of it has been downvoted, that'll give you some idea.

Do you want me to register a domain and build a site documenting the circle-jerk conversations here? It's not like anyone would care but me.

Re: Is HN only about saying nice things about everything?

#95

Post by pg »

alnayyir wrote: post #81
pg wrote: post #5

Based on a cursory look at your comments I would guess the problem is not what you say but how.

He's not the only one discontented with the state of the community. It's gotten so bad here that I can't convince half the programmers I know that this place is any better than a cult locked in a warehouse. Almost no one I know takes anything anybody says here seriously, even if the content stream is marginally better than the alternatives. The focus has shifted from intelligent and thoughtful writing seeded by your…

Actually there was more business-oriented boosterism when we first launched. The site was called "Startup News" initially.

The top stories don't seem visibly worse than they were in the good old days, whenever those were. There are more dumb and/or mean comments than there used to be, but they usually end up at the bottom of the page.

Re: Is HN only about saying nice things about everything?

#96

Post by mfukar »

Locke1689 wrote: post #23
DjDarkman wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I may be alone in this, but I like expressing my thoughts/feelings, as a matter of fact, most of the time I want to make it really clear that what I say is just my the way I see it. Do I go a little bit too far with it? Maybe.

Exactly what additional value is expressed by using three ??? vs ? In other words, say what you will, but don't get carried away.

Is the number of question marks really relevant to the point one is trying to make?

Let me rephrase that. Is the number of question marks really relevant to the point one is trying to make???

edit: Downvoted. I guess I don't have to keep arguing my point. :-)

Re: Is HN only about saying nice things about everything?

#97

Post by mfukar »

shib71 wrote: post #14
DjDarkman wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I may be alone in this, but I like expressing my thoughts/feelings, as a matter of fact, most of the time I want to make it really clear that what I say is just my the way I see it. Do I go a little bit too far with it? Maybe.

Every community values different things. On HN it's insight. If your writing style or attitude obscures such insight, it will be voted the same as if there were no insight at all.

After a quick glance on the OP's comments, I don't think it's that his posts lack content or insight, but rather are expressed in a style and/or tone some find unpleasant.

Re: Is HN only about saying nice things about everything?

#98

Post by AndrewS »

8ren wrote: post #55

My observation over a couple of years is that HN is consistently - sometimes boringly - critical. The top comment often is in disagreement with the submission, sometimes focusing on an incidental point, and it can seem that people actually compete to criticise on HN. Since this is HN, you might consider reading pg's essay how to disagree , and apply it to your comments before adding them: http://www.paulgraham.com/di…

Intellectual disagreements are usually more interesting than agreements, particularly when the original article is well written and doesn't require commentators to fill in the gaps.

Re: Is HN only about saying nice things about everything?

#99

Post by probably_banned »

pg wrote: post #95
alnayyir wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's not the only one discontented with the state of the community. It's gotten so bad here that I can't convince half the programmers I know that this place is any better than a cult locked in a warehouse. Almost no one I know takes anything anybody says here seriously, even if the content stream is marginally better than the alternatives. The focus has shifted from intelligent and thoughtful writing seeded by your…

Actually there was more business-oriented boosterism when we first launched. The site was called "Startup News" initially. The top stories don't seem visibly worse than they were in the good old days, whenever those were. There are more dumb and/or mean comments than there used to be, but they usually end up at the bottom of the page.

In response to your comment, I looked up some of the front pages from:

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://news.ycombinator.com/

And I have to say... at least in the sample of pages I looked at, there was a MUCH higher percentage of articles containing potentially actionable advice for tech startup types than is common on the front page today.

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