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US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

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Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#161

Post by masonic »

adjkant wrote: post #131
fromthestart wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The problem is that the state and federal ID system is so fucked up that it disenfranchises voters. Until that system is fixed, you can't use it for voting. I really think this is a giant myth. You're expecting me to believe that these minorities are living such horrid, opressed lives that they slave away every single day, and can't find a friend with a ride, or band together to make a group trip to get registered o…

Getting an ID goes far beyond just getting to the DMV. It also requires proof of address in many states, which immediately disqualifies the homeless. Many poor people also will not have access to documents such as birth certificates, SSN cards, and the like. An example: https://www.dmv.org/ny-new-york/id-cards.php To apply for a photo ID card, you must: * Be a citizen or a legal resident of the U.S. * Be a resident o…

Those requirements are to get your first ID -- to establish who you are.

Renewing or replacing an existing ID requires none of those other documents, generally. (I haven't even seen my SSID card in three decades)

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#162

Post by distances »

int_19h wrote: post #149
tracker1 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Umn, it seems to me that most of the opposition to requiring ID for voting (just a state issued ID) are liberals talking about disenfranchising the poor. Most of the poor already have ID, and beyond a few of the horror stories some seem to have getting ID, it's still not a bad idea. In the end, you have to register to vote, and in most states you do so with the same agencies that make Identifications. Requiring an ID…

The reason for it to be a federally issued ID is because it has to be 1) free to obtain, for this scheme to not amount to a de facto poll tax, and 2) easy to obtain, to avoid selective suppression of constituencies by e.g. removing offices that issue them in certain areas. States have been proven by experience to be willing to do both. AFAIK, all states that have implemented some form of voter ID to date collect fees…

> a recent example which is particularly glaring because the state explicitly admitted its motivation

Wow, this is mind-blowing to me. A fair election is the basis of western democracy, a sacred institution. In my mind this pretty much equates to treason.

I don't know how these people can sleep at night.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#163

Post by masonic »

zanny wrote: post #83
Muromec wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you please explain for non-americans what's the actual problem with havinf ID in US? Is it like most people only have driver license and ones who don't have a car (because they are poor) don't need one or it's more complicated? Where I'm from everybody is required by law to have one from the age of 14 and gets it for free for the first time. You just can't have anything done without id and tax identification code…

The difference is that every country with any sense actually keeps track of its citizens. Consistently. Because when you say it out loud, it sounds ridiculous to be a government with no idea who your people actually are. For half a century social security cards had "not for identification" written on them because they are really bad for ID. Didn't stop everyone from using them as ID because there was no other option…

  My parents lost my social security card at some point in my early childhood and it took 2 years and 3 visits to the DMV to get a replacement
How's that? No DMV issues Federal documents like Social Security cards.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#164

Post by masonic »

burfog wrote: post #151
village-idiot wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had to take a day off work to get my drivers license, and I was just transferring one from out of state. The lines were around the building before it opened. Now imagine doing that when you work an hourly service job instead of a salaried engineering job.

In some states, you'd have committed a crime already. You must replace your license before starting your job. So at least in those states, it isn't an issue. You have every day off from work.

  In some states, you'd have committed a crime already
Name one.

1) you don't need any drivers license to be employed in anything but driving

2) all states recognize other states' licenses ("full faith and credit") until a grace period after you take up actual residency or employment.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#165

Post by masonic »

code_duck wrote: post #153
_red wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/oct/18/texas-democ... Rasmussen Poll shows 54% of Democrats support giving illegals right to vote. I don't know why you are going against what the majority of your party openly wants?

“illegals” is a ridiculous and perjorative term. It’s not possible to be an illegal human being. Strange how people who supposedly abhor ‘big government’ and ‘over regulation’ give vast credence to government’s power to permit people to exist within an area or not.

  It’s not possible to be an illegal human being
It's about humans doing illegal acts.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#166

Post by masonic »

monocasa wrote: post #59
burfog wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The task force couldn't operate because the states most suspected of having this problem would not supply data. One could infer that this means they know they have the problem and are hiding it.

Did they try to subpoena the information? The Feds have a constitutional right to this information. Or did they just look for the first road block so that they could say "oh we tried to look into it, but we were foiled by those dastardly Democrats"?

  Did they try to subpoena the information?
A mere task force lacks subpoena power.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#167

Post by code_duck »

masonic wrote: post #165
code_duck wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“illegals” is a ridiculous and perjorative term. It’s not possible to be an illegal human being. Strange how people who supposedly abhor ‘big government’ and ‘over regulation’ give vast credence to government’s power to permit people to exist within an area or not.

It’s not possible to be an illegal human being It's about humans doing illegal acts.

Right. So when a human commits an illegal act, such a a misdemeanor visa overstay, that doesn’t make the person ‘an illegal’ anymore than you become ‘an illegal’ because you habitually speed in your car.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#168

Post by taejo »

reaperducer wrote: post #130
TheAceOfHearts wrote: post #60

Paper ballots are the superior method of voting. It makes it nigh impossible to cheat at a large scale and there's a paper trail verified by multiple adversarial parties. It's also way more reliable due to the sheer simplicity of the system. For a system as important as our elections we should take every precaution possible. Maybe I'm paranoid, but I don't even trust mail-in ballots. I'm perfectly content to fill out…

Paper ballots are the superior method of voting Based on first-hand experience, Al Gore disagrees.

Fine, then pen and paper ballots.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#169

Post by burfog »

masonic wrote: post #164
burfog wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some states, you'd have committed a crime already. You must replace your license before starting your job. So at least in those states, it isn't an issue. You have every day off from work.

In some states, you'd have committed a crime already Name one . 1) you don't need any drivers license to be employed in anything but driving 2) all states recognize other states' licenses ("full faith and credit") until a grace period after you take up actual residency or employment.

1) Florida

2) Sure, you can drive there. You can work there even. You can't combine them: working while having an out-of-state license is a crime.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#170

Post by unethical_ban »

baddox wrote: post #137
ikfmpwdsoz wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How hard is it to explain to people that their vote only goes to #2 if #1 is already out of the running?

It’s a challenge when people have only ever been exposed to first-past-the-post voting systems their entire life. And besides, it’s really not fair to assume that voting systems are simple to understand. Just have a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_electoral_system...

I don't know why you're downvoted, but as someone advocating for RCV, I think that the "instant runoff" method is about as easy as it can get, next to the FPTP we use today.

I agree there are other methods that are better by the book than the IRV method, but are exercises in statistics and graph theory.

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