US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level • Hacker News Board

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#131

Post by adjkant » Mon, Oct 29, 2018, 12:35 AM UTC

fromthestart wrote: post #110

adjkant wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it should also be a requirement to show a state or federal ID before you can cast your vote. I'm always floored when people try to defend voting without requiring any kind of identity verification. In Puerto Rico you're required to register ahead of time for a voter ID and you must present it in order to vote. If Puerto Rico, which is drastically poorer than all 50 states, can pull this off without it being…

>The problem is that the state and federal ID system is so fucked up that it disenfranchises voters. Until that system is fixed, you can't use it for voting. I really think this is a giant myth. You're expecting me to believe that these minorities are living such horrid, opressed lives that they slave away every single day, and can't find a friend with a ride, or band together to make a group trip to get registered o…

Getting an ID goes far beyond just getting to the DMV. It also requires proof of address in many states, which immediately disqualifies the homeless. Many poor people also will not have access to documents such as birth certificates, SSN cards, and the like.

An example: https://www.dmv.org/ny-new-york/id-cards.php

To apply for a photo ID card, you must:

* Be a citizen or a legal resident of the U.S.

* Be a resident of New York State.

* Have your original birth certificate.

* Have your Social Security card.

* Be able to provide enough documents to verify your identity.

This is not a myth, and affects magnitudes more people than there are cases of voter fraud.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#132

Post by tareqak » Mon, Oct 29, 2018, 12:37 AM UTC

tracker1 wrote: post #121

erikpukinskis wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No matter how you slice it, it amounts to “the poorest people can’t vote”. Maybe you don’t even have bus fare. Maybe your car can’t make it 90 miles to the nearest DMV. Also you’re really dismissing the fact that some people literally work all the hours the DMV is open. And when those people have their one or two days off, there’s other crap they have to get done. I’m not saying we shouldn’t have voter ID... I’m just…

If you're so bad off that you can't make it to a place to get an Id, then you're probably too poor to make it to a place to register to vote too. There's no reason that state issued Ids can't be done via mobile platforms. Also, I'm not saying it doesn't disenfranchise voters, but the numbers are so incredibly small that it's statistically insignificant.

If you went in to vote one year, but for one reason or another some way some how you were improperly registered and were unable to vote that day, then would you be alright if someone tried to console you with the words, "It's alright, you only have one vote which is so incredibly small that it's statistically insignificant"?

I understand that we shouldn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, but I think we shouldn't let the good be the enemy of the perfect either. The symbolic act in being able to cast your vote and at least have the feeling that you have control over various governments that have such powerful sway over your life is powerful and maybe even cathartic.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#133

Post by 8note » Mon, Oct 29, 2018, 12:48 AM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #91

Mountain_Skies wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that really so weird? All elections are essentially state elections. Even the presidency is really a state level election due to the way the electoral college works. There is no nationwide election so why would there need to be a nationwide ID system for voting? I'm in favor of requiring a photo id to vote but am well aware of the problems some have in obtaining such an id. That's the problem that needs to be corr…

Indeed. I hold a similar dual position and it is very easy to rationalise. Government controls the police and military, and so has the capability to threaten me in a way that pretty much nothing else does. I want the process of controlling the government to be transparent, difficult and controlled - hence voters should be identified on voting. I want the government's power to be controlled - hence I don't want them t…

couldn't someone in power just buy that link information from someone like Equifax?

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#134

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Oct 29, 2018, 12:57 AM UTC

fromthestart wrote: post #110

adjkant wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it should also be a requirement to show a state or federal ID before you can cast your vote. I'm always floored when people try to defend voting without requiring any kind of identity verification. In Puerto Rico you're required to register ahead of time for a voter ID and you must present it in order to vote. If Puerto Rico, which is drastically poorer than all 50 states, can pull this off without it being…

>The problem is that the state and federal ID system is so fucked up that it disenfranchises voters. Until that system is fixed, you can't use it for voting. I really think this is a giant myth. You're expecting me to believe that these minorities are living such horrid, opressed lives that they slave away every single day, and can't find a friend with a ride, or band together to make a group trip to get registered o…

[deleted]

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#135

Post by erikpukinskis » Mon, Oct 29, 2018, 1:02 AM UTC

fromthestart wrote: post #125

erikpukinskis wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No matter how you slice it, it amounts to “the poorest people can’t vote”. Maybe you don’t even have bus fare. Maybe your car can’t make it 90 miles to the nearest DMV. Also you’re really dismissing the fact that some people literally work all the hours the DMV is open. And when those people have their one or two days off, there’s other crap they have to get done. I’m not saying we shouldn’t have voter ID... I’m just…

>Maybe you don’t even have bus fare. Maybe your car can’t make it 90 miles to the nearest DMV. >Also you’re really dismissing the fact that some people literally work all the hours the DMV is open. And when those people have their one or two days off, there’s other crap they have to get done. For an entire year? You can't scrape together $20 and find a free afternoon once or twice in a decade? What percentage of the…

What percentage is small enough for you to consider it “not voter suppression”?

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#136

Post by baddox » Mon, Oct 29, 2018, 1:35 AM UTC

matthewmacleod wrote: post #117

TheAceOfHearts wrote: post #60

Paper ballots are the superior method of voting. It makes it nigh impossible to cheat at a large scale and there's a paper trail verified by multiple adversarial parties. It's also way more reliable due to the sheer simplicity of the system. For a system as important as our elections we should take every precaution possible. Maybe I'm paranoid, but I don't even trust mail-in ballots. I'm perfectly content to fill out…

I think it should also be a requirement to show a state or federal ID before you can cast your vote. I’d be interested to know why though. Is it a problem in the US? In the UK at least, no ID is required and there is virtually no voter fraud. Is it really the case that the cost (disenfranchising groups with lower rates of access to photographic ID) is worth it to solve an issue that might not even exist?

There is virtually no voter fraud (that would be solved by Id requirements) in the United States either. Every study I have seen shows on the order of dozens per year in the entire country, and many of those are probably accidental.

And if you think about it, it’s pretty clear that in-person voter fraud is already difficult and risky enough in the US that it’s really not a scalable election manipulation strategy.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#137

Post by baddox » Mon, Oct 29, 2018, 1:44 AM UTC

ikfmpwdsoz wrote: post #100

daphneokeefe wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a pollworker in San Francisco, and I can tell you from personal experience with thousands of voters that Ranked-Choice Voting is widely misunderstood. The common refrain is: I only want to vote for this one candidate, and not for anyone else. In a hotly-contested election, they absolutely do not want to vote for the other guy as #2.

How hard is it to explain to people that their vote only goes to #2 if #1 is already out of the running?

It’s a challenge when people have only ever been exposed to first-past-the-post voting systems their entire life.

And besides, it’s really not fair to assume that voting systems are simple to understand. Just have a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_electoral_system...

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#138

Post by slededit » Mon, Oct 29, 2018, 1:48 AM UTC

njarboe wrote: post #107

zanny wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that every country with any sense actually keeps track of its citizens. Consistently. Because when you say it out loud, it sounds ridiculous to be a government with no idea who your people actually are. For half a century social security cards had "not for identification" written on them because they are really bad for ID. Didn't stop everyone from using them as ID because there was no other option…

"Because when you say it out loud, it sounds ridiculous to be a government with no idea who your people actually are." In the US, one of the founding principles, different from all (almost all?) others at the time, was the people create the government to govern for them. Government was not suppose to be a system where the government (ie. the monarchy) rules and owns the people. I don't think it is such a bad idea tha…

That used to come with an extremely loose immigration policy. The default assumption being if you were physically in the country then you were American. You can't have strict immigration and not have tracking of who citizens actually are.

Its hard to get your first ID specifically because of the desire to limit immigration fraud.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#139

Post by perpetualcrayon » Mon, Oct 29, 2018, 1:59 AM UTC

3pt14159 wrote: post #82

perpetualcrayon wrote: post #79

I think it's probably still a little too far outside most peoples' comfort zone, but I think the future of voting will be 100% electronic with the capability of being instantly recallable. The voting system will allow me to see exactly how my vote was tallied after the fact. From what I have read this is not desirable for the fact that people will more easily be able to sell their vote because they can prove to their…

No the primary problem isn't selling votes. The primary problem is fabricating votes or people trying to destabilize an election by claiming they voted for someone else. If even 100 people come out and said their votes were changed what do we do? Re-run the election? Just use paper ballots. This isn't that hard.

The way I look at it fabrication would be impossible if done right.

1) precinct has record of every eligible voter 2) voter can (via encrypted means) retrieve their vote so it's still "private", but the voter can view it after they've voted.

So as long as (a) the precinct confirms only eligible voter records are counted and (b) each voter can confirm their vote counted how they intended then I can't see how fabrication comes into play.

Granted this assumes the systems in place to onboard new voters is solid, but even if it's not breaches should in theory expose the weaknesses and make it possible for us to iterate toward an even more perfect system. By not exposing the core data it's kind of like "security through obscurity".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_through_obscurity

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#140

Post by perpetualcrayon » Mon, Oct 29, 2018, 2:06 AM UTC

chrsstrm wrote: post #86

perpetualcrayon wrote: post #79

I think it's probably still a little too far outside most peoples' comfort zone, but I think the future of voting will be 100% electronic with the capability of being instantly recallable. The voting system will allow me to see exactly how my vote was tallied after the fact. From what I have read this is not desirable for the fact that people will more easily be able to sell their vote because they can prove to their…

One of the cornerstones of US voting is secrecy. The ability to cast your vote without the public knowing who you voted for contributes to the integrity of the entire election. Today you can already be assured your vote was counted - in California you can go to voterstatus.sos.ca.gov and review your previous election participation and see that it was recorded.

Of course I'm not thinking we should make a voter's ballot public. Through public key cryptography a voter should be able to secretly retrieve and confirm their votes. And like with any other system there would be a small handful of people who will "claim" their ballot was counted incorrectly. But as long as the system has integrity only a small handful of people will do this. If large swaths of people start blaming the system of counting their vote incorrectly then there are real problems we should all know about.