US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level • Hacker News Board

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#71

Post by adjkant » Sun, Oct 28, 2018, 8:21 PM UTC

colemannugent wrote: post #67

revscat wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it so taboo to talk about the fact that a significant portion of the political ruling class is eager to actively subvert democracy, no matter what technical solutions are available? The Republican Party does not care about electoral fairness, whether it’s papwr, electronic, or a physical show of hands. It is democracy itself they are opposed to, and will continue to amass power until bloodshed forces change. P…

> It is democracy itself they [The Republican Party] are opposed to, and will continue to amass power until bloodshed forces change. So in your opinion, the solution to Republicans subverting democracy isn't well considered democratic action, but rather bloodshed? That seems rather anti-democratic. > Proposing technical solutions assumes all players wish for fair elections. This is not the case. So you can't think of…

I'm not in agreement about violence being the answer, but when the democracy has already been subverted, democratic action is very unlikely to be possible to fix it. It's then a populist power struggle that usually leads to violence. No one in the US government these days actually does much more than lip service to the idea of democracy, and we have long been going away from direct democracy for quite some time. The regularity that public opinion mismatches policy actions is staggering, and the amount of pressure of disagreement it takes to stop an unpopular policy is crazy.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#72

Post by TheOtherHobbes » Sun, Oct 28, 2018, 8:22 PM UTC

colemannugent wrote: post #67

revscat wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it so taboo to talk about the fact that a significant portion of the political ruling class is eager to actively subvert democracy, no matter what technical solutions are available? The Republican Party does not care about electoral fairness, whether it’s papwr, electronic, or a physical show of hands. It is democracy itself they are opposed to, and will continue to amass power until bloodshed forces change. P…

> It is democracy itself they [The Republican Party] are opposed to, and will continue to amass power until bloodshed forces change. So in your opinion, the solution to Republicans subverting democracy isn't well considered democratic action, but rather bloodshed? That seems rather anti-democratic. > Proposing technical solutions assumes all players wish for fair elections. This is not the case. So you can't think of…

I don't see the previous comment as recommending bloodshed.

I do see it warning that it's a possible outcome.

As for technical solutions - paper ballots make this a solved problem, albeit a labour-intensive one. (How much effort is democracy worth?)

The idea that vote counting contracts should ever have been be handed to contractors *who fund specific political parties and have been indicted for bribery and other criminal acts" is almost surreal in its aggressive disdain for verifiable electoral fairness.

https://columbusfreepress.com/article/diebold-indicted-its-s...

https://www.accesswire.com/471912/Voting-Technology-Companie...

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#73

Post by prolikewh0a » Sun, Oct 28, 2018, 8:25 PM UTC

revscat wrote: post #64

jcrawfordor wrote: post #20

My county of over 600k people has a Bureau of Elections staff of five, and none of them are really technical people, they just do basic work on the machines and train the temp staff hired for elections. They rely on a contractor to handle just about every aspect of the technology, including the pollbook system, and that company is a larger operation but still the kind of operation where I've heard the elections staff…

Why is it so taboo to talk about the fact that a significant portion of the political ruling class is eager to actively subvert democracy, no matter what technical solutions are available? The Republican Party does not care about electoral fairness, whether it’s papwr, electronic, or a physical show of hands. It is democracy itself they are opposed to, and will continue to amass power until bloodshed forces change. P…

>Why is it so taboo to talk about the fact that a significant portion of the political ruling class is eager to actively subvert democracy, no matter what technical solutions are available?

I get called a conspiracy nut for talking about this. Neither Republicans or Democrats really give even the slightest of care towards election integrity. What have the Republicans or Democrats done to actively try to fix anything? Republicans prefer to not talk about it at all, Democrats love to talk about how they're for election integrity but do nothing about it. Democrats even conveniently purged voters in Brooklyn just in time for Bernie vs Hillary primary and were sued for it [1].

Almost none of the ruling class cares. Only maybe 3 or 4 senators, congress, actually care. If you let the people actually vote and participate in Democracy, those people might stop being part of the ruling class and money may actually start trickling down.

[1] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/new-york-city-boa...

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#74

Post by anigbrowl » Sun, Oct 28, 2018, 8:41 PM UTC

_red wrote: post #24

creaghpatr wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vox is just trying to delegitimize the election ahead of a potential loss. They did the same thing for the Supreme Court. Textbook fearmongering.

Further the article never mentions: ID, illegals, undocumented Complaining about fraud via electronic voting machines and ignoring the 20M+ that are potentially voting illegally is quite curious indeed.

There is no evidence of this being an actual problem despite repeated investigations. Stop spreading misinformation and slandering people.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#75

Post by stouset » Sun, Oct 28, 2018, 9:04 PM UTC

adjkant wrote: post #69

TheAceOfHearts wrote: post #60

Paper ballots are the superior method of voting. It makes it nigh impossible to cheat at a large scale and there's a paper trail verified by multiple adversarial parties. It's also way more reliable due to the sheer simplicity of the system. For a system as important as our elections we should take every precaution possible. Maybe I'm paranoid, but I don't even trust mail-in ballots. I'm perfectly content to fill out…

> I think it should also be a requirement to show a state or federal ID before you can cast your vote. I'm always floored when people try to defend voting without requiring any kind of identity verification. In Puerto Rico you're required to register ahead of time for a voter ID and you must present it in order to vote. If Puerto Rico, which is drastically poorer than all 50 states, can pull this off without it being…

The same proponents of stronger voter ID laws are also the same people who are incomprehensibly paranoid about the notion of a national ID system.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#76

Post by cmurf » Sun, Oct 28, 2018, 9:04 PM UTC

TheAceOfHearts wrote: post #60

Paper ballots are the superior method of voting. It makes it nigh impossible to cheat at a large scale and there's a paper trail verified by multiple adversarial parties. It's also way more reliable due to the sheer simplicity of the system. For a system as important as our elections we should take every precaution possible. Maybe I'm paranoid, but I don't even trust mail-in ballots. I'm perfectly content to fill out…

There's essentially no one saying there should be no identity verification, just like there's no meaningful voter impersonation fraud.

The complaint is the fairness of the burden to obtain acceptable ID, for voting. In Alabama, over a dozen driver's license office closures mean people in overwhelmingly black counties had a vastly high burden to obtain ID than people living in predominately white counties. There are all kinds of examples and variations on this theme. It's hardly any different than poll taxes, and literacy tests. They're just as blatantly racist as how photo ID rules are employed.

Using your logic of Puerto Rico, since the vast majority of the U.S. went without photo ID's for voting for over 200 years with no statistically meaningful voter fraud problems, we don't need such laws today either. Meanwhile a recent case in Texas, a non-citizen with stolen photo ID had been illegally voting in elections, which means photo ID's do not assure there's no fraud.

Anyway, people have a right to vote. It is not a privilege. And therefore the state cannot apply unreasonable burdens on people, which only serve to disenfranchise them from their right to vote.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#77

Post by Muromec » Sun, Oct 28, 2018, 9:10 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #70

TheAceOfHearts wrote: post #60

Paper ballots are the superior method of voting. It makes it nigh impossible to cheat at a large scale and there's a paper trail verified by multiple adversarial parties. It's also way more reliable due to the sheer simplicity of the system. For a system as important as our elections we should take every precaution possible. Maybe I'm paranoid, but I don't even trust mail-in ballots. I'm perfectly content to fill out…

Sure, require ID; but it must be freely available and easily accessible, and states which end up with different ID takeup rates for different races should be prosecuted.

Can you please explain for non-americans what's the actual problem with havinf ID in US? Is it like most people only have driver license and ones who don't have a car (because they are poor) don't need one or it's more complicated?

Where I'm from everybody is required by law to have one from the age of 14 and gets it for free for the first time. You just can't have anything done without id and tax identification code, so voting is just another place to show it. It's not even about technologies - my is handwritten with photo being glued on it.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#78

Post by Animats » Sun, Oct 28, 2018, 9:16 PM UTC

revscat wrote: post #64

jcrawfordor wrote: post #20

My county of over 600k people has a Bureau of Elections staff of five, and none of them are really technical people, they just do basic work on the machines and train the temp staff hired for elections. They rely on a contractor to handle just about every aspect of the technology, including the pollbook system, and that company is a larger operation but still the kind of operation where I've heard the elections staff…

Why is it so taboo to talk about the fact that a significant portion of the political ruling class is eager to actively subvert democracy, no matter what technical solutions are available? The Republican Party does not care about electoral fairness, whether it’s papwr, electronic, or a physical show of hands. It is democracy itself they are opposed to, and will continue to amass power until bloodshed forces change. P…

Unfortunately, yes. Read. "What Went Wrong in Ohio" [2005], from House Judiciary Committee staff.[1] Among other things, the CEO of Diebold Election Systems was Ohio state Republican chair.[2] The security of voting machines remains very weak.[3]

"Our concerns are exacerbated by the fact that there are very few companies who manufacture and operate voting machines, and they tend to be controlled by executives who donate largely, if not exclusively, to the Republican Party and Republican candidates."

"Diebold’s Express Poll 5000 machines were even easier to crack, thanks to having an easily accessible memory card, which you could swap out while voting, containing supervisor passwords in plain text."

"The "security" of these WINvote machines is so bad. Running WinXP, autorun enabled and hard-coded WEP wifi password."

[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20050203193203/https://www.house... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walden_O%27Dell [3] https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/08/13/defcon_election_vot...

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#79

Post by perpetualcrayon » Sun, Oct 28, 2018, 9:21 PM UTC

I think it's probably still a little too far outside most peoples' comfort zone, but I think the future of voting will be 100% electronic with the capability of being instantly recallable. The voting system will allow me to see exactly how my vote was tallied after the fact.

From what I have read this is not desirable for the fact that people will more easily be able to sell their vote because they can prove to their "buyer" how they voted. I think from a big-picture perspective this isn't a big deal. The reason is it would be extremely easy to create sting operations on both ends of this transaction: (a) create a sting to find and prosecute people willing to sell their vote, and (b) create a sting to find and prosecute people attempting to buy votes.

I'd prefer to move to a voting system where I can account for my vote after I've voted and put in place enforcement via these types of sting operations to prevent the inevitability of people attempting to buy / sell votes more frequently.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#80

Post by JoeAltmaier » Sun, Oct 28, 2018, 9:23 PM UTC

Muromec wrote: post #77

pjc50 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, require ID; but it must be freely available and easily accessible, and states which end up with different ID takeup rates for different races should be prosecuted.

Can you please explain for non-americans what's the actual problem with havinf ID in US? Is it like most people only have driver license and ones who don't have a car (because they are poor) don't need one or it's more complicated? Where I'm from everybody is required by law to have one from the age of 14 and gets it for free for the first time. You just can't have anything done without id and tax identification code…

E.g. Poor without car in big city, required to show up at DMV office to get ID card during work hours. Two weeks to get the time off, two hours on the bus, find the ID office closed because budget forced limited hours.

The ID law has been shown to be slanted to disfavor the working poor who vote for one party over another. It's not done as a legitimate concern over fraud; its a political maneuver to favor one party over the other and disenfranchise the poor. That's the argument