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US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

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Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#61

Post by bo1024 »

jcrawfordor wrote: post #20

My county of over 600k people has a Bureau of Elections staff of five, and none of them are really technical people, they just do basic work on the machines and train the temp staff hired for elections. They rely on a contractor to handle just about every aspect of the technology, including the pollbook system, and that company is a larger operation but still the kind of operation where I've heard the elections staff…

I agree to some extent, but paper ballots seem to solve a lot of these expertise problems (in addition to all the security and reliability ones).

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#62

Post by unethical_ban »

TheAceOfHearts wrote: post #60

Paper ballots are the superior method of voting. It makes it nigh impossible to cheat at a large scale and there's a paper trail verified by multiple adversarial parties. It's also way more reliable due to the sheer simplicity of the system. For a system as important as our elections we should take every precaution possible. Maybe I'm paranoid, but I don't even trust mail-in ballots. I'm perfectly content to fill out…

I respect the idea that paper is "unhackable" and that decentralized voting counts are less vulnerable to attack.

I've been thinking alot about Ranked-Choice Voting (RCV) and how to do an instant runoff with paper ballots at scale, notably for something like President. I suppose it's unlikely to occur, but in the instance of a national popular vote for president that results in a runoff, it is worth the extra time to go back through and count. After all, TV entertainment aside, there is no need to have results in same-day.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#63

Post by kimmeld »

TheAceOfHearts wrote: post #60

Paper ballots are the superior method of voting. It makes it nigh impossible to cheat at a large scale and there's a paper trail verified by multiple adversarial parties. It's also way more reliable due to the sheer simplicity of the system. For a system as important as our elections we should take every precaution possible. Maybe I'm paranoid, but I don't even trust mail-in ballots. I'm perfectly content to fill out…

Past history of voter ID is mostly intended to lower voter turnout especially among certain groups of people. Historically it's not really about detecting fraud. I find it hard to take people seriously who think it's really about fraud.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poll_taxes_in_the_United_State...

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#64

Post by revscat »

jcrawfordor wrote: post #20

My county of over 600k people has a Bureau of Elections staff of five, and none of them are really technical people, they just do basic work on the machines and train the temp staff hired for elections. They rely on a contractor to handle just about every aspect of the technology, including the pollbook system, and that company is a larger operation but still the kind of operation where I've heard the elections staff…

Why is it so taboo to talk about the fact that a significant portion of the political ruling class is eager to actively subvert democracy, no matter what technical solutions are available? The Republican Party does not care about electoral fairness, whether it’s papwr, electronic, or a physical show of hands. It is democracy itself they are opposed to, and will continue to amass power until bloodshed forces change.

Proposing technical solutions assumes all players wish for fair elections. This is not the case.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#65

Post by wizzard »

ashleyn wrote: post #53

I was floored when I read the responses to malfunctioning equipment in Texas. "Voters are moving too quickly through the pages." That is a BUG! not user error in the slightest.

Right? "Voters need to wait until all the choices have populated before making a selection." Absolute BS. Software design 101.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#66

Post by gsich »

vibrolax wrote: post #58
gsich wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why do electronic machines in the first place?

Because they're cheaper. I lived in counties that formerly used mechanical voting machines. They were replaced by electronic ones when the cost of maintaining them became higher than the replacement cost. If security was considered at all, I speculate that it was not the highest priority.

I agree but only if paper voting is abolished, otherwise you'll have both systems in place. Or is the paper only used when there are concerns about the results?

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#67

Post by colemannugent »

revscat wrote: post #64
jcrawfordor wrote: post #20

My county of over 600k people has a Bureau of Elections staff of five, and none of them are really technical people, they just do basic work on the machines and train the temp staff hired for elections. They rely on a contractor to handle just about every aspect of the technology, including the pollbook system, and that company is a larger operation but still the kind of operation where I've heard the elections staff…

Why is it so taboo to talk about the fact that a significant portion of the political ruling class is eager to actively subvert democracy, no matter what technical solutions are available? The Republican Party does not care about electoral fairness, whether it’s papwr, electronic, or a physical show of hands. It is democracy itself they are opposed to, and will continue to amass power until bloodshed forces change. P…

>It is democracy itself they [The Republican Party] are opposed to, and will continue to amass power until bloodshed forces change.

So in your opinion, the solution to Republicans subverting democracy isn't well considered democratic action, but rather bloodshed? That seems rather anti-democratic.

>Proposing technical solutions assumes all players wish for fair elections. This is not the case.

So you can't think of any technical solutions that assume bad intentions on behalf of most of the involved actors? What about the protocol your browser used to send your comment to the servers that run this forum?

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#68

Post by stretchwithme »

It's a winner-take-all electoral system. I'm not getting my interests represented anyway. So not exactly sure why I should be upset about the accuracy with which I being denied that.

Sure it's not good. But it is just an enhancement of a greater wrong. I find most people don't want to deal with that issue at all and would prefer to believe the current system, as it is supposed to work, is the best way to do things.

It's a good system for those who are currently able to exploit it for their own gain. But that's always true everywhere.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#69

Post by adjkant »

TheAceOfHearts wrote: post #60

Paper ballots are the superior method of voting. It makes it nigh impossible to cheat at a large scale and there's a paper trail verified by multiple adversarial parties. It's also way more reliable due to the sheer simplicity of the system. For a system as important as our elections we should take every precaution possible. Maybe I'm paranoid, but I don't even trust mail-in ballots. I'm perfectly content to fill out…

> I think it should also be a requirement to show a state or federal ID before you can cast your vote. I'm always floored when people try to defend voting without requiring any kind of identity verification. In Puerto Rico you're required to register ahead of time for a voter ID and you must present it in order to vote. If Puerto Rico, which is drastically poorer than all 50 states, can pull this off without it being considered a problem then I find it really hard to take seriously the claims of people saying it sets too high of a bar.

The problem is that the state and federal ID system is so fucked up that it disenfranchises voters. Until that system is fixed, you can't use it for voting.

This issue then becomes a partisan one because voter fraud is so rare that it doesn't seem to need any additions, so strong pushes for voter ID laws (which almost never address the issue of the ID systems) are targeting those who are less likely to have ID, which tends to be concentrated with voting for one party. If anyone actually cared about voter ID laws for non-partisan reasons, it would go hand in hand with a national ID system.

Re: US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at almost every level

#70

Post by pjc50 »

TheAceOfHearts wrote: post #60

Paper ballots are the superior method of voting. It makes it nigh impossible to cheat at a large scale and there's a paper trail verified by multiple adversarial parties. It's also way more reliable due to the sheer simplicity of the system. For a system as important as our elections we should take every precaution possible. Maybe I'm paranoid, but I don't even trust mail-in ballots. I'm perfectly content to fill out…

Sure, require ID; but it must be freely available and easily accessible, and states which end up with different ID takeup rates for different races should be prosecuted.
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