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Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

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Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#201

Post by ehnto »

jkaplowitz wrote: post #186
eigenvector wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mutual exclusivity is valid. Being able to do stuff that requires a lot of time and doesn't make a lot of money (i.e. art) requires a low cost of living. Adding a bunch of people making $200k+ into a neighbourhood does the opposite of that, very rapidly and very predictably.

Most people working for tech startups (as opposed to for Google itself) don't make anywhere near that salary, especially not outside the major US tech hubs. This campus would have been a startup incubator, not a regular Google office. That said, yes it would have still contributed to gentrification in a less extreme way than a true Google office.

A low cost of living is also a benefit to bootstrapped software/web companies (small blogs, niche publishers, other online content creators).

But gentrification still happens without big dollar companies showing up. It's often a side effect of the success of the arts in the area. As the wealthy kids move in to be hip and cool, and the businesses that enjoy their money move in afterward, rents go up and creators are pushed out.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#202

Post by sonnyblarney »

StudentStuff wrote: post #199
sonnyblarney wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"what people here really don't like is the sort of tech entrepreneur who builds themselves a castle in the middle of the city, considers the local population to be "riff-raff" and doesn't respect the communal nature of a city." What on earth are you talking about? Who are these magical people who build castles? And Berlin is not hugely more 'communal' than anywhere else.

Amazon, Google, Facebook. Look at the castles they've built in Seattle, you aren't getting in unless you are an employee or are escorted by an employee. None of those companies need this level of security, and most other businesses you can literally wander into during office hours, but that is generally not the case with these three.

You are not allowed into any corporate office, in any city - unless you work there.

Every company definitely has security, even small one's, and this has nothing to do with the FANGs.

Try to waltz into the UBS or Deutchebank building and see if you can just wander around.

Most banks have considerably more security than the FANGS and ever since 9/11 many NYC buildings have a ton of security.

You need to get a visitors badge with a photo they take of you on the spot to simply go to a meeting in some towers in the US. You need 15 minutes just to get in.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#203

Post by ajmurmann »

eropple wrote: post #63
bko wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think arbitrary restrictions on groups that can purchase or lease space in a neighborhood is bad for a free society. I guess people say it depends on what group you're imposing. Now it's Google which you may or may not like, but other groups can be harmed in the future. This is part of the whole NIMBY movement. As long as the group is following laws and zoning restrictions, there should be nothing preventing them f…

Nobody is restricting Google from doing anything. They are expressing--in a way that is part of, and frankly should be expected of being a member of, one of those "free societies" you mention--that Google is unwelcome , and no, nobody is obligated to make you feel welcome . There are cases where not making somebody welcome kinda makes you an asshole, but that does not, frankly, apply to anybody who's got a stock tick…

"you piss in the pool wherever you go, please stay away from our pool."

Several people mentioned something to this effect. Nobody makes clear what they are referring to. Is this just about gentrification?

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#204

Post by erik_seaberg »

doombolt wrote: post #7
meguest wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spain and Italy currently have weakened economies caused by large unemployment and government debt. Italy in particular is at risk of defaulting on its debts (which are 131% of GDP compared to 87.7% for the U.K and 64.1% in Germany as of 2017) and the ECB and other lenders are going to be reluctant to lend to them. This is turn puts the banks and all kinds of public services at risk.

I don't understand why it will be harder to attract software developers to Italy versus Poland. Weather and environment are much nicer and if this job ends you just move elsewhere. I would easily move to a cheap locale even if tech scene there is not abundant. I'd not move to London or Switzerland since you will always be 2nd class citizen compared to e.g. bankers. Which is just non issue in southern europe. Weak eco…

> would easily move to a cheap locale even if tech scene there is not abundant

I wouldn't. Being in high demand in Silicon Valley is amazing even compared to Seattle. I wouldn't move to a backwater for fear of having to move again every 3-5 years.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#205

Post by xapata »

eigenvector wrote: post #185
pteredactyl wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mutual exclusivity is naive at best. To me, it shows haters' level of intellect. And perhaps explains why they feel left out. They're attached to an ideal of what 'art' (additionally, activism[1]) should be. An outdated, 20th century one. I personally don't like Google. And I understand your framing is hypothetical. But why is tech framed the opposite of art? Why is tech equal to techbro? Yea there are always bad…

The mutual exclusivity is valid. Being able to do stuff that requires a lot of time and doesn't make a lot of money (i.e. art) requires a low cost of living. Adding a bunch of people making $200k+ into a neighbourhood does the opposite of that, very rapidly and very predictably.

If you want to be a professional artist, you need people to buy your art -- patrons. In cities without a large number of wealthy people (passing through, if not resident), there aren't many art galleries.

Artists often live in different districts or even different cities than their gallerists, but they tend to appreciate their patrons.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#206

Post by lkrubner »

jschuur wrote: post #9

If I read the article correctly, this wasn't about building a new 'Google campus' (i.e. a huge building to house a large number of Google employees as their main regional HQ). This was about building Campus Berlin, an incubator for startups like they pioneered first in London and then brought to other cities. See https://www.campus.co/berlin/de and https://www.campus.co/london/en . It's easy to misunderstand this bec…

I think everyone, myself included, who loved Berlin up till (roughly) 2012 is horrified by the sudden increase in rents that has occurred since the tech industry started moving to Berlin. In 2010 I stayed with a friend who was renting a beautiful 2 bedroom apartment in Neukoln for 550 euros a month. That was common back then. 8 years later, it is impossible to find that kind of rent. The city was much more pleasant before the tech industry showed up.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#207

Post by hnzix »

wbl wrote: post #200
mrzool wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The mutual exclusivity is naive at best. Your comment shows utter ignorance about what's happening — or already happened — in virtually every major city in every developed country.

How are Tokyo housing prices? Vienna's cost of living is kept down by large amounts of social housing, etc. Gentrification is a side effect of not building housing.

> Gentrification is a side effect of not building housing.

The pattern I've seen (excluding SF) is that an arty area becomes trendy because of its culture, then a bunch of real estate developers kick out all the artists to build high-density housing while bringing in residential zoning laws (no live music etc).

The artists flee somewhere cheaper, build up the culture, rinse and repeat, until you end up with somewhere like Sydney Australia that's had all its culture surgically removed.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#208

Post by woodpanel »

omer_balyali wrote: post #134
woodpanel wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Connecting today’s or even 1970s counter-culture with that of the 1920s is really far fetched as most counter-culturalists where driven out shortly after (see 1930s) and never came back. Following your logic, that it shouldn’t matter where new tenants come from - isn’t that what anti-gentrification activism effectively is about? Prohibiting new tenants to move in?

The real NIMBYists are the ones who pushed these people to ghettos, next to Berlin Wall. I want my city to be better and i want workers to do this. -Immigrants? Not in my backyard. I want my city to be culturally rich and i want to be proud of the art that created in my city. -Punks? Unemployed artists? Not in my backyard. Because of this, these people located in Kreuzberg... many many years ago, before the Wall even…

Wow, not only are your points completely a-historical and just stitched-together buzzwords from German history. You also have chutzpah to teach others about their history while living just for two years in Berlin (as you openly admitted in another comment here).

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#209

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

tomjen3 wrote: post #170
SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> help diversify the tech ecosystem in Berlin and give them access to facilities and other resources. Another way of looking at that, is "gentrify the vibrant neighbourhood by trucking in techbros to displace the artists". It's not new (1) I don't necessarily agree with that framing, but it is understandable and coherent, not a misunderstanding 1) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18282143

If you can replace techbros with $MINORITY and the artists with white people, you can see why I have no sympathy for that argument, or the people who put it forth.

And yet the results are the exact opposite - when the tech scene moves in, prices and rents go up. It's clearly not a good analogy if it produces the opposite result.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#210

Post by jplayer01 »

bko wrote: post #59
keiferski wrote: post #42

I’m honestly kind of surprised at Google’s complete lack of cultural or diplomatic knowledge about Berlin. Kreuzberg is/was the center of artistic culture in the city, and choosing to have a presence there, no matter how small, would clearly be viewed as a corporate American attack on local countercultural values. As another commenter stated, they could have avoided this entire issue by picking somewhere in Mitte or…

I think arbitrary restrictions on groups that can purchase or lease space in a neighborhood is bad for a free society. I guess people say it depends on what group you're imposing. Now it's Google which you may or may not like, but other groups can be harmed in the future. This is part of the whole NIMBY movement. As long as the group is following laws and zoning restrictions, there should be nothing preventing them f…

The idea of a "free society" is a myth. Something perpetuated by neo-liberals who think all that matters is absolute freedom and money. News flash: Culture matters. At least, it matters to people whose only interest is not money.
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