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Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

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Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#171

Post by camillomiller »

manfredo wrote: post #165
camillomiller wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This makes no sense. Berlin is a rent city, not a ownership one. So what’s the incredible gain to lock?

Berlin has extensive rent control. So it likely the same situation as San Francisco: a significant portion of renters enjoy a privileged rent price and aren't affected by rising housing costs. While people in non-rent controlled cities like Seattle accept development, people in rent controlled cities oppose development because they don't want their neighborhood to change and they are insulated from rising rents.

The situation in both Seattle and San Francisco is effed-up big time, and that's because of Big Tech. There's no comparison yet with Berlin, and Berliners simply showed that social cohesion still counts. It's a fight against tone deaf giants that can't see themselves doing any harm ever in the name of progress. What happened to Google in Berlin was the best possible outcome.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#172

Post by manfredo »

camillomiller wrote: post #171
manfredo wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Berlin has extensive rent control. So it likely the same situation as San Francisco: a significant portion of renters enjoy a privileged rent price and aren't affected by rising housing costs. While people in non-rent controlled cities like Seattle accept development, people in rent controlled cities oppose development because they don't want their neighborhood to change and they are insulated from rising rents.

The situation in both Seattle and San Francisco is effed-up big time, and that's because of Big Tech. There's no comparison yet with Berlin, and Berliners simply showed that social cohesion still counts. It's a fight against tone deaf giants that can't see themselves doing any harm ever in the name of progress. What happened to Google in Berlin was the best possible outcome.

The situation in San Francisco is mostly due to NIMBYism and a refusal to build housing. Tech jobs don't magically make housing prices rise - shortages of housing make housing prices rise. Seattle is handling this better than SF, in large part because SF had messed with the natural interaction of supply and demand. Given what the above commenter wrote, Berlin looks like it is in the same situation as SF: trying to solve a housing shortage by discouraging demand rather than increasing supply.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#173

Post by kadendogthing »

Kalium wrote: post #167
kadendogthing wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in some cases I can see why some people might be reluctant to engage. Within the tech community, it's really just ego and myopic view points and experiences. >convince people of this basic truth when they find unfriendly receptions. As a matter of practicality, it's easier to deflate the obstacle.

> Within the tech community, it's really just ego and myopic view points and experiences. I definitely understand that. Tech people are too self-centerd and shortsighted to look or care about others! If they tried, they'd surely find it a highly rewarding experience. It's patently obvious that none of these asshole techbros has ever actually tried at all, right? After all, if they had stepped outside their narrow wor…

> It's patently obvious that none of these asshole techbros has ever actually tried at all, right?

It's also pretty obvious when techbro's lack any kind of liberal arts education, or general praxis around the various subjects encompassed in liberal arts. You typically see this in discussions around government or social policies. But it can rear its head in literature to, like when the usage of satire is so out of place and crudely crafted one can't help but wonder how self-aware the person misusing it is.

> It's not possible that someone could be exposed to the glory of art, creativity, and expression without being moved to value it!

Well it certainly is possible and even likely. No one ever made any kind of point insinuating that, or even broached that subject about changing hobbies or what you enjoy. So you've definitely just misunderstood the entire discussion. I recommend rereading the topic post and this thread.

> I'm really not sure what you mean by "deflate the obstacle".

The obstacle being ego.

>I would very much like to be able to engage substantively

Well you can help yourself out by not wasting an enormous amount of energy and craftsmanship around... whatever it is you are doing.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#174

Post by chobeat »

C1sc0cat wrote: post #137
chobeat wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This would go against the interests of the locals, that, frankly, in a community should come before the interests of some programmer that would find a job somewhere else.

Er freedom of movement of labour is one of the core principles of the EU. So its all right for Germany to benefit from freetrade but not allow freedom of movement - that is what the Brexit and UKip want. So comrade when did you start colluding with the boss class

It's complicated: if your freedom of movement harms somebody else, is it ethical? As an emigrant I can value the freedom of labour and movement but I can also see that this harms people if it becomes too extreme like in Berlin. That's why here lot of leftists are criticizing open borders and free immigration: mass migrations are a product of capitalism and we should solve the problem at the root, not just cope with the symptom.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#175

Post by Kalium »

kadendogthing wrote: post #173
Kalium wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Within the tech community, it's really just ego and myopic view points and experiences. I definitely understand that. Tech people are too self-centerd and shortsighted to look or care about others! If they tried, they'd surely find it a highly rewarding experience. It's patently obvious that none of these asshole techbros has ever actually tried at all, right? After all, if they had stepped outside their narrow wor…

> It's patently obvious that none of these asshole techbros has ever actually tried at all, right? It's also pretty obvious when techbro's lack any kind of liberal arts education, or general praxis around the various subjects encompassed in liberal arts. You typically see this in discussions around government or social policies. But it can rear its head in literature to, like when the usage of satire is so out of pla…

> The obstacle being ego.

Ah. Well. At least I now understand what you mean. Though I've found deflating the egos of every person in a discussion to be a difficult task. Telling a person getting a hostile reception to get their ego out of the way tends to come across a lot like telling someone to take the licks they deserve, complete with generally being discarded out of hand. Telling a person who feels righteous anger to deflate their ego tends to be seen as telling them their feelings aren't valid.

It's definitely possible for it to work! But I've rarely seen it accomplished.

> Well you can help yourself out by not wasting an enormous amount of energy and craftsmanship around... whatever it is you are doing.

Trying to understand you, establishing myself as someone who isn't your enemy, so we could have an actual discussion. And maybe help you understand the people you appear to viscerally despise as human beings with wants and needs and desires and goals and communities, just like the ones you love and wish to protect so that we can work towards what's best for everyone.

I'm sorry we couldn't have that discussion. I felt like it could have been productive for everyone. Have a wonderful day!

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#176

Post by mrzool »

jschuur wrote: post #9

If I read the article correctly, this wasn't about building a new 'Google campus' (i.e. a huge building to house a large number of Google employees as their main regional HQ). This was about building Campus Berlin, an incubator for startups like they pioneered first in London and then brought to other cities. See https://www.campus.co/berlin/de and https://www.campus.co/london/en . It's easy to misunderstand this bec…

People around here understood what this was about very well. It was not a misunderstanding.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#177

Post by mrzool »

pteredactyl wrote: post #89
SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> help diversify the tech ecosystem in Berlin and give them access to facilities and other resources. Another way of looking at that, is "gentrify the vibrant neighbourhood by trucking in techbros to displace the artists". It's not new (1) I don't necessarily agree with that framing, but it is understandable and coherent, not a misunderstanding 1) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18282143

The mutual exclusivity is naive at best. To me, it shows haters' level of intellect. And perhaps explains why they feel left out. They're attached to an ideal of what 'art' (additionally, activism[1]) should be. An outdated, 20th century one. I personally don't like Google. And I understand your framing is hypothetical. But why is tech framed the opposite of art? Why is tech equal to techbro? Yea there are always bad…

> The mutual exclusivity is naive at best.

Your comment shows utter ignorance about what's happening — or already happened — in virtually every major city in every developed country.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#178

Post by mrzool »

hknd wrote: post #41
jschuur wrote: post #9

If I read the article correctly, this wasn't about building a new 'Google campus' (i.e. a huge building to house a large number of Google employees as their main regional HQ). This was about building Campus Berlin, an incubator for startups like they pioneered first in London and then brought to other cities. See https://www.campus.co/berlin/de and https://www.campus.co/london/en . It's easy to misunderstand this bec…

Yes, this is so sad. I know so many start-up founders in London who spend nearly every day at the campus in London. It's a free workspace with a lot of benefits, like wifi, cheap snacks/drinks and meeting other founders for kx.

Poor start-up founders! No wifi and cheap snacks for them. Instead, those spaces will be given to a non-profit donation platform and to an organization that supports children and young people in need.

This is incredibly sad :(

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#179

Post by DanielleMolloy »

woodpanel wrote: post #169
chobeat wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Irony that might be true on the internet but not in the real world.

Meet your self-proclaimed „activist“ in charge, Berlin-Kreuzberg’s housing councilor [1]. Born in Cologne (not Berlin), finished School in Frankfurt (not Berlin), studied humanities for nine years (in Hamburg, Barcelona and then Berlin). And before holding political office never once worked in a private sector job where he payed into social security. Pretty much ironic what goes as anti-gentrificationista these days.…

We should be careful about easily judging others, there are different life philosophies and diverse definitions of success in life, and different paths than most people in this forum have taken. But I have to agree here.

He is portrayed in this documentary for his fight against a major housing property investor and shows the camera team around his Kreuzberg flat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI2QpsWQgEA&t=580s

I really wonder how he can still be living in his old 2-room student Kreuzberg apartment with a full family. It is not true that Berlin has no cheap apartments for families anymore. Outside the hip quarters for sure, but certainly offering better living spaces for 2 little children and a wife than this tiny Kreuzberg flat. He may believe that he is carrying the fight over to his private life but I call this irresponsible.

And this guy was one of the major players chasing Google away.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#180

Post by slededit »

m23khan wrote: post #104

There is a city called Hamilton in Ontario, Canada. Houses a good University called McMaster and is near Waterloo University - premier Computer Science university in Canada. City (Hamilton) is fairly well developed with a functioning International Airport and since it was initially built around manufacturing, its prestige within Canada has suffered somewhat in last 20-25 years. If firms like Google would be so kind t…

Hamilton has a gritty feel Cap Hill used to have in Seattle before it was ruined. Great nightlife but always a slight worry you might get robbed. It has density without the cost so you can see uniqueness you won't get elsewhere.
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