Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

bbc.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 235 posts

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#61

Post by [deleted] »

bko wrote: post #59
keiferski wrote: post #42

I’m honestly kind of surprised at Google’s complete lack of cultural or diplomatic knowledge about Berlin. Kreuzberg is/was the center of artistic culture in the city, and choosing to have a presence there, no matter how small, would clearly be viewed as a corporate American attack on local countercultural values. As another commenter stated, they could have avoided this entire issue by picking somewhere in Mitte or…

I think arbitrary restrictions on groups that can purchase or lease space in a neighborhood is bad for a free society. I guess people say it depends on what group you're imposing. Now it's Google which you may or may not like, but other groups can be harmed in the future. This is part of the whole NIMBY movement. As long as the group is following laws and zoning restrictions, there should be nothing preventing them f…

[deleted]

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#62

Post by keiferski »

bko wrote: post #59
keiferski wrote: post #42

I’m honestly kind of surprised at Google’s complete lack of cultural or diplomatic knowledge about Berlin. Kreuzberg is/was the center of artistic culture in the city, and choosing to have a presence there, no matter how small, would clearly be viewed as a corporate American attack on local countercultural values. As another commenter stated, they could have avoided this entire issue by picking somewhere in Mitte or…

I think arbitrary restrictions on groups that can purchase or lease space in a neighborhood is bad for a free society. I guess people say it depends on what group you're imposing. Now it's Google which you may or may not like, but other groups can be harmed in the future. This is part of the whole NIMBY movement. As long as the group is following laws and zoning restrictions, there should be nothing preventing them f…

I used to agree with you, but considering the fact that San Francisco has gone from “semi-affordable haven for weirdos and off-beat culture” to “single most expensive city in America filled primarily with tech workers and the homeless” in less than 30 years, I don’t any more. Semi-similar situations for lower Manhattan, Paris, East London, ad infinitum.

A place can have a unique culture that’s worth maintaining. How to maintain it - I don’t know. But converting everything to MegaCo offices probably isn’t the solution.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#63

Post by eropple »

bko wrote: post #59
keiferski wrote: post #42

I’m honestly kind of surprised at Google’s complete lack of cultural or diplomatic knowledge about Berlin. Kreuzberg is/was the center of artistic culture in the city, and choosing to have a presence there, no matter how small, would clearly be viewed as a corporate American attack on local countercultural values. As another commenter stated, they could have avoided this entire issue by picking somewhere in Mitte or…

I think arbitrary restrictions on groups that can purchase or lease space in a neighborhood is bad for a free society. I guess people say it depends on what group you're imposing. Now it's Google which you may or may not like, but other groups can be harmed in the future. This is part of the whole NIMBY movement. As long as the group is following laws and zoning restrictions, there should be nothing preventing them f…

Nobody is restricting Google from doing anything. They are expressing--in a way that is part of, and frankly should be expected of being a member of, one of those "free societies" you mention--that Google is unwelcome, and no, nobody is obligated to make you feel welcome. There are cases where not making somebody welcome kinda makes you an asshole, but that does not, frankly, apply to anybody who's got a stock ticker symbol.

This is "you piss in the pool wherever you go, please stay away from our pool." This isn't NIMBY in any meaningful way and the comparison is downright mendacious.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#64

Post by mkirklions »

woodpanel wrote: post #2

Rightly so. Berlin has an amazing start up scene, certainly unique for and unrivaled in Germany. That being said, Berlin hosts a lot of NIMBYism. Particularly by people who gentrified the city in the first place and immediately turned to become fierce gentrification enemies. Essentially locking in their gains.

It is too soon to declare this was a 'good idea'.

Historically investment in a city has benefited a city. This is the opposite.

I wonder who was behind the protest, was it the established tech players and wanted to keep competition out?

This seems like a mild form of isolationism, and again, if we use history, this seems like a bad idea.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#65

Post by woodpanel »

badpun wrote: post #44
dao- wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There may still be very valid reasons to protest Google in Berlin, but I wonder if the people objecting understood the distinction: Very much so. Been to a panel discussion organized by them. The fear was that the incubator would accelerate gentrification. Doesn't matter whether the pay checks come from Google at the end of the day.

> The fear was that the incubator would accelerate gentrification. Sort of understood, given that Germans are a nation of life-long renters (as opposed to home-owners). Gentrification is generally great for the owner and terrible for the renter.

> Gentrification is generally great for the owner and terrible for the renter.

Well not entirely.

Gentrification is started and driven by new groups of tenants moving into a neighbourhood. Property owners and investors will only jump onto the bandwagon afterwards. With German restrictions on rent-increases, being one of those original gentrificators (OG) you can lock in an incredibly low rent in a place where rents for new leases skyrocket. As long as you stay in your flat, you're shielded from those rent-hikes.

Growing up, I've had many friends who lived literally in city mansions (4m++ ceiling height, art deco, 6-10 rooms for a family of three) in a fully gentrified area paying a rent lower than I paid for my no-go-area 25sqm studio. All because their parents kept the lease from their 1970s flatshare (pre-gentrification, no-go-area then).

Today even more than 20yrs ago, those OGs often live in an opaque, inaccessible grey housing market: If they want to move (because e.g. the 6 people they share a flat with became 1 spouse and a kid), they first look out for other OGs to do a lease-switch. Which means their rent level stays pre-gentrification forever. If nothing comes across they can still "resell" the lease.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#66

Post by eropple »

hknd wrote: post #41
jschuur wrote: post #9

If I read the article correctly, this wasn't about building a new 'Google campus' (i.e. a huge building to house a large number of Google employees as their main regional HQ). This was about building Campus Berlin, an incubator for startups like they pioneered first in London and then brought to other cities. See https://www.campus.co/berlin/de and https://www.campus.co/london/en . It's easy to misunderstand this bec…

Yes, this is so sad. I know so many start-up founders in London who spend nearly every day at the campus in London. It's a free workspace with a lot of benefits, like wifi, cheap snacks/drinks and meeting other founders for kx.

How many of them lived and worked there before that? How many of them are making the community around them better for this? Look, I work for startups, I'm not remotely out of this myself, but most startups create net-negative externalities on the places around them (I'd say that most create net-negative externalities societally, and I refuse to work for those, but that's a different kettle of fish.) It isn't "sad" that a countercultural and art-focused area doesn't want techbros milquetoasting the community and causing CoL spikes--even if that means they don't want me around, either.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#67

Post by urschrei »

bko wrote: post #59
keiferski wrote: post #42

I’m honestly kind of surprised at Google’s complete lack of cultural or diplomatic knowledge about Berlin. Kreuzberg is/was the center of artistic culture in the city, and choosing to have a presence there, no matter how small, would clearly be viewed as a corporate American attack on local countercultural values. As another commenter stated, they could have avoided this entire issue by picking somewhere in Mitte or…

I think arbitrary restrictions on groups that can purchase or lease space in a neighborhood is bad for a free society. I guess people say it depends on what group you're imposing. Now it's Google which you may or may not like, but other groups can be harmed in the future. This is part of the whole NIMBY movement. As long as the group is following laws and zoning restrictions, there should be nothing preventing them f…

Resistance from a community is not a "restriction", and characterising this as NIMBYism would be intellectually dishonest if it weren't so ridiculous. Google is not a group, it's a vastly wealthy and powerful corporate entity, and objecting to its presence in a community is not a slippery slope or precedent-setting in the sense which you (again, preposterously) imply.

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#68

Post by bko »

eropple wrote: post #63
bko wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think arbitrary restrictions on groups that can purchase or lease space in a neighborhood is bad for a free society. I guess people say it depends on what group you're imposing. Now it's Google which you may or may not like, but other groups can be harmed in the future. This is part of the whole NIMBY movement. As long as the group is following laws and zoning restrictions, there should be nothing preventing them f…

Nobody is restricting Google from doing anything. They are expressing--in a way that is part of, and frankly should be expected of being a member of, one of those "free societies" you mention--that Google is unwelcome , and no, nobody is obligated to make you feel welcome . There are cases where not making somebody welcome kinda makes you an asshole, but that does not, frankly, apply to anybody who's got a stock tick…

> Nobody is restricting Google from doing anything

From the article: In September activists occupied the building it was to be located in for several hours.

That seems like the activists were preventing them

> This is "you piss in the pool wherever you go, please stay away from our pool." This isn't NIMBY in any meaningful way and the comparison is downright mendacious.

Saying you do [something I don't like] and I don't want you to do [thing I don't like] in my neighborhood is exactly NIMBY

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#69

Post by l5870uoo9y »

keiferski wrote: post #42

I’m honestly kind of surprised at Google’s complete lack of cultural or diplomatic knowledge about Berlin. Kreuzberg is/was the center of artistic culture in the city, and choosing to have a presence there, no matter how small, would clearly be viewed as a corporate American attack on local countercultural values. As another commenter stated, they could have avoided this entire issue by picking somewhere in Mitte or…

Kreuzberg is the center of left activism in Berlin which is anti-globalisitic, anti-corporate, anti-american and anti-gentrification, Google (and its entourage) is the embodiment of that. Ironically however, Google is present in Kreuzberg at "Factory community".

Re: Google drops plans for Berlin campus after protests

#70

Post by eropple »

bko wrote: post #68
eropple wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is restricting Google from doing anything. They are expressing--in a way that is part of, and frankly should be expected of being a member of, one of those "free societies" you mention--that Google is unwelcome , and no, nobody is obligated to make you feel welcome . There are cases where not making somebody welcome kinda makes you an asshole, but that does not, frankly, apply to anybody who's got a stock tick…

> Nobody is restricting Google from doing anything From the article: In September activists occupied the building it was to be located in for several hours. That seems like the activists were preventing them > This is "you piss in the pool wherever you go, please stay away from our pool." This isn't NIMBY in any meaningful way and the comparison is downright mendacious. Saying you do [something I don't like] and I do…

You realize that Google has billions upon billions of dollars and effectively unlimited weight to throw around, yes? A few protestors hanging out in a building does not prevent them from doing anything they want to. They have run the numbers and presumably realized that having your neighbors not want you there is not worth the PR hit of doing it--but literally nobody is stopping it from happening.

This poor-benighted-Google thing is gross. These companies are not on anyone's side.

Post reply on HN