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America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

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Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#391

Post by dorchadas »

rsa4046 wrote: post #375
wenc wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America's education is a paradox. The U.S. produces many of the world's great intellectuals, inventors and engineers. So how does it do it if the education system is that bad? The answer is that it isn't. This is what I've observed: Its K-12 education system isn't that great in general, but it's good enough. Its colleges however do a good job filtering the non-academically inclined and catching up those remaining to…

Echoes David Goodstein's "Paradox of Scientific Elites and Scientific Illiterates" from the early 90's[0]: "The answer, I think, is that in education and in science, as in fast food and popular culture, America is not really worse than the rest of the world, we are merely a few years ahead of the rest of the world. What we are seeing here will happen everywhere soon enough. Our colleagues abroad can take what scant c…

You should hear how much elementary school teachers complain about the math portion of their required test. Quite a few fail to pass it on the first time (or second, even) and the test doesn't even get as complex as exponentials/logarithms, if I remember correctly.

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#392

Post by El_Flanagan »

onemoresoop wrote: post #321
El_Flanagan wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wont say that about Spain. You will have a decent life. If you want to save money or invest, that's it. No fancy dinners nor trips during your PTO. You will also have to work until you are at least 65-70 years old to have a regular retirement. I wont call that living like a King. Just like a regular working class person. Decent? Sure. But that's it.

It's a figure of speech, living like a king is overrated anyway, you got no privacy. I'd say that you'd live a comfortable life nonetheless

Yes, I know it's a figure of speech. Still I disagree with the meaning you are giving to it. Living like a King >>> Living a comfortable life.

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#393

Post by shados »

geff82 wrote: post #272
shados wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 80k$-140k$ Thats the problem. You used the dollar symbol, but even if its euros, the upper range you gave is 160k. That's way, way too low for an upper range if someone's thinking of salaries on one of the US' coasts (especially west, but also east). Insurance is mostly for if you lose your job...as long as you have one, its a pretty tiny part of the paychecks, retirement matching is pretty common, food isn't that…

House worth 700k next to Frankfurt (the house I live in): 450 Euro a year. If you really count in the high rents on east and westcoast, I doubt there is high net difference of money to live from. If you are working as a freelancer, your tech income will also be rather in the 160-240k$ range (and quite stable nevertheless)

> I doubt there is high net difference of money to live from

In percentage? Probably not a big difference. In absolute numbers? OOoooh yeah.

I can only speak from my personal experience, but my take home money after -all- expenses, including after feeding my retirement fund (basically what ends up in my savings and investment accounts unrelated to my retirement budget) is generally more than what a lot of people make as gross income in many other countries.

There's no argument that the money comes at a high social inequality cost, but I wouldn't be able to get close to that anywhere else.

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#394

Post by shados »

pastor_elm wrote: post #312
shados wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 80k$-140k$ Thats the problem. You used the dollar symbol, but even if its euros, the upper range you gave is 160k. That's way, way too low for an upper range if someone's thinking of salaries on one of the US' coasts (especially west, but also east). Insurance is mostly for if you lose your job...as long as you have one, its a pretty tiny part of the paychecks, retirement matching is pretty common, food isn't that…

If you want to make 600k as a software developer, stay in San Francisco, live in your 2.5 million dollar .2 acre ranch house, and enjoy walking over homeless people on your way to work.

The last part is definitely the right point to make. To me there's no argument that taken in a vacuum, there is no country in the world where you'll be better off as a software developer than in one of the big tech centers in the US (not just SF, but NY, Boston, whatever. There's a bunch).

But it comes at the cost of...well, everyone else.

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#395

Post by zjaffee »

ivl wrote: post #77
zjaffee wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> skilled labor does not want to live in rural and middle America. I'm unsure about this, and think it's kind of a chicken and the egg problem. I know tons of people who are from the midwest that would prefer to be there, but tend to flock to the coast simply because it's hard to find as rigorous of a professional environment back home.

It's not a chicken and egg problem. Cities are much more efficient for labor and companies. You have a larger pool of talent, a larger pool of freshly educated replacements for those who retire or leave, and often more services available for said talent. Edit: Now that I'm thinking about it a little more I can maybe sympathize a little bit. I prefer to live in rural areas in some ways due to my hobbies, but I'm never…

I don't disagree with what you're saying, but one thing about less dense areas including parts of the midwest is you can commute from rural areas into the downtown of a city in under an hour (where these are parts of metro areas that can contain over 2 million people).

I'm not suggesting that a headquarters needs to be in these smaller cities either, but often times right now, there isn't even a satellite office with any engineering.

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#396

Post by sgc »

carlmr wrote: post #378
sgc wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can agree that the graduate level in the US is good, and sometimes the best. But as someone who studied in Europe and taught undergrads in the US, they were appallingly poor students, entitled, and lazy. The university was and is considered (roughly) in the top 15% in national academic rankings, and one of the top for its region. No way they were graduating at the same level as many other countries.

Yeah, I can only compare with Canadian undergrad and they were still far behind by 3rd and 4th year, even though the rankings show the universities higher. The rankings have little to do with quality of education and more with impact of research I presume (or they're entirely made up). At the graduate level (Master/PhD) I'd say it becomes comparable, but there were very few Canadian students compared to Chinese and I…

The comparisons tend to only work well nationally. See https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/how-...

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#397

Post by learc83 »

lenkite wrote: post #389
sarchertech wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You got text you quoted from right wing media. He never said the words you wrote, and if you google them, you'll find they only appear in right wing media. I'm not arguing for or against open borders. But I'm telling you Keith Ellison isn't arguing for what you think he is. >Legal immigrants have also have to wait in a queue and satisfy formalities. For 99% of the population there is no queue to wait in. >who are nei…

My last comment as I really don't like to talk about politics on HN. Speaking from an immigrant family - there are lot of procedures to formally migrate into the US. You need an immigrant visa for starters and this is not easy to get - you can be rejected for several reasons and need to reapply. Then you need to work towards getting a green card for at-least 5 years. There is a waiting list. You may not get your card…

You seem to be very misinformed because you are overgeneralizing your family's experience. I don't blame you, but you are very wrong and you need to research this yourself, because right now you are angry over an imaginary situation.

>there are lot of procedures to formally migrate into the US.

There are specialized visa for celebrities, athletes, people with extraordinary abilities, investors, refugees from certain countries, and qualified asylum seekers. Almost none of the of people in Mexico will qualify for these visas, and there is nothing they can do to change that.

For everyone else in Mexico, there are 3* ways to immigrate to the US.

1. You have close family who are US citizens, who are willing to sponsor you.

2. You marry a US citizen.

3. You have an occupation that is in high demand, and you can find an employer to sponsor you. (For most professions the employer must also win one of a few slots in a visa lottery)

For all of those categories except refuge and asylum, your family must make 1.5x above the federal poverty level for your family size including yourself (this disqualifies most of the Mexicans who do have family in the US), you must pass a Civil Surgeon exam, and a background check.

If you don't fit into one of those categories there is no way for you to legally immigrate to the US. There is nothing you can do about it. There is no line to wait in. There is no immigration visa to apply for.

When you see poor Mexican families crossing the border, it’s because they had absolutely no way to legally immigrate. Even if they waited 20 or even 50 years, they wouldn’t get in because there is no line, no process.

>You need an immigrant visa for starters and this is not easy to get - you can be rejected for several reasons and need to reapply.

Again unless you fit one of the above categories, and the vast majority of Mexicans do not, this does not exist. There is nothing to apply for.

*There are also a small amount of diversity visas awarded each year in a lottery. People born in Mexico and most other large countries don't qualify for the diversity lottery.

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#398

Post by tabtab »

gdilla wrote: post #219
tabtab wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please elaborate. The time-period was after the dot-com crash. Companies were laying off IT employees left and right, often because the companies died. CA was flooded with excess IT workers. I even put an ad on Craigslist around 2002 that I'd do development for minimum wage. No takers. What else do you want? I nearly left IT. Okay, I'm not the cream of the crop I admit, but are you saying average developers should ge…

But companies in CA were still hiring, as you mentioned. If the labor pool was flooded with laid off workers, then it's a buyers market. You would think the companies can just hire from that pool for whatever they wanted to pay (cuz in such a climate, they would have takers), without bothering with the H1B search and paperwork hassle.

If they are thinking medium or longer term, then the short-term slump may weigh less in their decision process. A visa worker is less likely to be ABLE to go elsewhere if/when economy or an industry improves. They are almost like indentured servants.

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#399

Post by jki275 »

joserg wrote: post #339
jki275 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What legal immigrants have they taken "actions" against.

Flubbing the census, reducing numbers of legal immigrants allowed, general public shaming of non-european immigrants from "shit hole" countries (that US policy helped create, BTW.) Honestly, you have to be trying to not see the pattern. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/aug/18/trump-legal-... https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/now-trump-admin...

If you're arguing that Somalia isn't a failed state that makes it very difficult to approve visas (the example in your first link), that's not a "crackdown on legal immigration", it's a feature of a system that does not grant visas to people whose names can't even be verified, let alone criminal background checks performed. That's been a feature of the US immigration system (and in fact all immigration systems) for a very long time, it didn't originate with this administration.

Your second link is a bit silly. Perhaps you're not acquainted with how immigration works. When a person is sponsored to immigrate to the US, their sponsor signs an agreement to essentially pay for them for the next ten years no matter what. I know, I've actually filled out and signed that form along with the I-130. Use of public assistance programs is a significant red flag on a citizenship application (always has been), due to the fact that means the person probably somehow does not have the means to support themselves, and thus is not likely in compliance with our immigration system. Our immigration system and citizenship system is based on allowing people to immigrate who can provide for themselves or have people who will provide for them -- that's a feature, not a bug. You may disagree with the program, but the administration is simply enforcing policies that are current law. Previous administrations may have chosen to ignore those laws, but that doesn't remove them from the books. There are plenty of features built into the US Government to change those laws if the people so desire -- the people in the US have chosen not to do so, your feelings notwithstanding.

The census flap is about counting citizens, not illegals. We all know that some people want all illegal aliens counted as it would skew things in some areas, but again, change the laws if you don't like them.

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#400

Post by TomMckenny »

pm90 wrote: post #366
TomMckenny wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strange that the government acts with zealous intervention and unconventional ideas to solve worker "shortages" but does essentially nothing to solve extreme housing costs and shortages.

The Government isn’t sending out airplanes to pick up workers and bring them here. The legal immigration system is neither easy to get through nor available to everyone. Stop blaming the Government for all your imaginary problems.

>all your imaginary problems

A personal attack as your response? Am I on 4chan?

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