America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away • Hacker News Board

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#331

Post by poulsbohemian » Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 11:23 PM UTC

DataWorker wrote: post #266

CodeMage wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Both of these would ensure that we can get smart and talented individuals from outside the US and would drastically improve the ability for the US to compete while continuing to provide broad-based wage increases. As an immigrant, I'm all for better and easier immigration system. As a parent of an 11 year old, I can tell you that what your country really needs is not more smart and talented immigrants, but better e…

Your opinion is obviously contradicted by the facts. The American education system is a major reason people immigrate here in the first place. Many of the best universities and research centers in the world happen to be in America. You may have some gripe about your kid’s teacher or whatever, but if you feel that a single data point from a parent’s biased perspective is more informative than the facts and statistics,…

Why are you picking a fight with the parent poster when they are describing k-12 education (which is rotten; many studies have shown this) and using our universities (which are good) as your counterpoint?

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#332

Post by core-questions » Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 11:27 PM UTC

NeoBasilisk wrote: post #283

core-questions wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These stats are thrown off by a number of factors that it would be imprudent to get into here. Control for demographic samples similar to the other countries and you'll see a very different picture.

So you're saying poor people in the US don't matter because they bring down the average?

I don't think that's what I'm saying. Of course they _matter_, as much as any of us do anyhow.

What I'm saying is that if you actually compare people with similar demographically-expected IQ and socioeconomic situations, Americans stack up fine. It's the extenuating circumstances that drag the overall averages down.

All that really means is that overall averages across 300 million people aren't that useful.

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#333

Post by dudul » Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 11:27 PM UTC

skksjsnaahs wrote: post #220

dudul wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory it is not very complicated for a H1B to change employer. It simply requires the employer to file a petition to sponsor the H1B. It doesn't count towards the "seats" available yearly, and it's almost guaranteed to be granted. There is a small cost, maybe a few grands. If you think about it, it's way cheaper than paying recruiter fee fo example. In practice you're right though. Most companies have limited exp…

Word on the street from hiring managers is that it now takes > 6 mo to process such a visa transfer and you can’t get premium processing to speed it up. People are making offers to candidates with undefined start dates many months in the future. The candidate has to commit to switching jobs when the transfer is submitted. If current job gives them a promotion in the interim and they decide to stay, they can’t just ca…

I think most of this comment is wrong. A "transfer" is actually not a thing. When another employer files a petition for a worker who already has an H1B, it doesn't "cancel" the first H1B. It simply makes it possible for this second employer to hire the worker. It is completely possible for the applicant to change their mind and decide to stay with the first employer.

I went through 2 H1B "transfers" (so in total I have been employed by 3 different employers as a H1B) 7-ish years ago so I'm very familiar with this process. At least, the way it was working at that time.

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#334

Post by core-questions » Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 11:27 PM UTC

noobermin wrote: post #287

core-questions wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These stats are thrown off by a number of factors that it would be imprudent to get into here. Control for demographic samples similar to the other countries and you'll see a very different picture.

Singapore is a multi-racial country, and it does better than the US on PISA. So is Canada and it does better. And if your point isn't race or culture, but of economic disparity, that is sort of my point.

"Multi-racial" is not a homogenous term you can just throw around as though it means the same thing everywhere.

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#335

Post by stevenwoo » Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 11:29 PM UTC

affinity100 wrote: post #328

It's strange to see contrasting responses(read: not unequivocally welcome) from programmers to increasing H1B visas when most(not all, but a significant fraction) of these same programmers call for practically limitless immigration from south of the border for low skilled jobs. So virtue signalling even at the cost of your fellow citizens but skepticism to immigration when it comes to your own job.

I'm not defending what you are attacking, but one sees that attitude consistently in the farm arena, those people who own/manage farms want to have more border security and less immigration from abroad (whatever that means but what the GOP is running upon nationally) and they also want access to the undocumented workers that supply the labor for their farms. From dairy farms in the midwest to livestock farming around the country to central California to border areas along Mexico, that is the one thing that stuck out in coverage on all news sources from local papers to radio that interviews farmers that hire immigrants. It seems like the epitome of doublethink, but it's a pretty widely held viewpoint.

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#336

Post by graeme » Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 11:32 PM UTC

CodeMage wrote: post #226

firedrakerage wrote: post #11

I do not typically post, but these suggestions seem like genuine improvements to the existing system: "Kerr suggests allocating H-1Bs not by lottery as they are now, but by salary — the more that a company is willing to pay for a foreign worker, the quicker they can get a visa." "A second change would be to allow H-1B workers to apply for permanent residency green cards on their own, without having to be sponsored by…

> Both of these would ensure that we can get smart and talented individuals from outside the US and would drastically improve the ability for the US to compete while continuing to provide broad-based wage increases. As an immigrant, I'm all for better and easier immigration system. As a parent of an 11 year old, I can tell you that what your country really needs is not more smart and talented immigrants, but better e…

Paul Graham pointed out that the US has 5% of the global population. But, it has been a magnet for talent, allowing it to punch above its weight in technology.

You do make a good point. Perhaps america is only using 2.5 of it's 5%. Half, in other words.

But that's still tiny compared to the sheer amount of foreign tech talent america has been able to benefit from.

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#337

Post by afarrell » Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 11:32 PM UTC

michaelt wrote: post #56

KirinDave wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I agree with you (although I bet for different reasons) but, Why? What do you think is actually is the problem if highly compensated employment is used as a fast track to immigration and perhaps even citizenship?

rrggrr is worried companies will say "1 year contract, $10,000 per day first week, $0 per day subsequent 51 weeks" and jump to the top of the stack as they're paying $10,000 per day.

In the UK, the immigration agency checks that you are still being paid above the minimum salary for a work visa. I see no reason why they couldn't check on this sort of thing.

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#338

Post by affinity100 » Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 11:35 PM UTC

stevenwoo wrote: post #335

affinity100 wrote: post #328

It's strange to see contrasting responses(read: not unequivocally welcome) from programmers to increasing H1B visas when most(not all, but a significant fraction) of these same programmers call for practically limitless immigration from south of the border for low skilled jobs. So virtue signalling even at the cost of your fellow citizens but skepticism to immigration when it comes to your own job.

I'm not defending what you are attacking, but one sees that attitude consistently in the farm arena, those people who own/manage farms want to have more border security and less immigration from abroad (whatever that means but what the GOP is running upon nationally) and they also want access to the undocumented workers that supply the labor for their farms. From dairy farms in the midwest to livestock farming around…

Is it any surprise that most of the country is beginning to see right through this duplicity and virtue signalling and the democrat party is not looking so hot?

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#339

Post by joserg » Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 11:40 PM UTC

jki275 wrote: post #145

akhilcacharya wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their actions against legal immigrants of color speak louder than their weak virtue signals.

What legal immigrants have they taken "actions" against.

Flubbing the census, reducing numbers of legal immigrants allowed, general public shaming of non-european immigrants from "shit hole" countries (that US policy helped create, BTW.) Honestly, you have to be trying to not see the pattern.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/aug/18/trump-legal-...

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/now-trump-admin...

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#340

Post by wenc » Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 11:43 PM UTC

CodeMage wrote: post #226

firedrakerage wrote: post #11

I do not typically post, but these suggestions seem like genuine improvements to the existing system: "Kerr suggests allocating H-1Bs not by lottery as they are now, but by salary — the more that a company is willing to pay for a foreign worker, the quicker they can get a visa." "A second change would be to allow H-1B workers to apply for permanent residency green cards on their own, without having to be sponsored by…

> Both of these would ensure that we can get smart and talented individuals from outside the US and would drastically improve the ability for the US to compete while continuing to provide broad-based wage increases. As an immigrant, I'm all for better and easier immigration system. As a parent of an 11 year old, I can tell you that what your country really needs is not more smart and talented immigrants, but better e…

America's education is a paradox.

The U.S. produces many of the world's great intellectuals, inventors and engineers. So how does it do it if the education system is that bad? The answer is that it isn't. This is what I've observed:

Its K-12 education system isn't that great in general, but it's good enough.

Its colleges however do a good job filtering the non-academically inclined and catching up those remaining to the rest of the world in 4 years. U.S. college graduates are no worse than say UK college grads in terms of ability, even in technical disciplines. Elite U.S. colleges arguably produce students of equal or higher quality and the elite universities in most countries.

Taken broadly, U.S. grad schools are on par with the rest of the world. Its elite grad schools however are heads over heels better -- which is why everyone wants to go to grad school at a good US university. The funding is way better too.

Certain European countries like France, and funneling societies like India and China, produce more highly trained technical types at the college level, but these advantages wash out at the graduate level.

Most of the world optimizes education at the K-12 levels. The U.S. optimizes education at the tertiary level.