Green tea supplements ruined my liver • Hacker News Board

Re: Green tea supplements ruined my liver

#91

Post by gaius » Thu, Oct 25, 2018, 12:14 PM UTC

choko wrote: post #69

SmellyGeekBoy wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can't people just eat a bit less and do some exercise? It's not rocket science.

Because many people have poor impulse control and it's not nearly as easy as you present. If it were, many fewer people would have issues with obesity. It's not as if those people don't know why they are overweight.

many people have poor impulse control

Yes and no. I expect that most people’s impulse control is actually OK, in the absence of continuous advertising i.e. an obesogenic environment. Snack companies spend literally billions to psychologically profile and manipulate their customers...

Re: Green tea supplements ruined my liver

#92

Post by bshep » Thu, Oct 25, 2018, 12:17 PM UTC

I work in a transplant hospital ( for liver and other organs ) and we see A LOT of people with liver damage from suplements ( green tea, valerian root, etc ) I would recommend against any supplements unless you clear them with your doctor, some are ok like VitD ( in the correct dosage ) others are downright dangerous.

Re: Green tea supplements ruined my liver

#93

Post by sieveoferos » Thu, Oct 25, 2018, 12:18 PM UTC

This is not great reporting by the BBC. Most grievously, as others have mentioned, they don't mention the dosages this guy was taking.

The important point to grasp behind all this concern over "supplements" is that there's no such thing as a supplement. Everything that's not a food is a drug. If something is not part of a human diet somewhere - i.e. if it's been extracted and refined significantly - then it's a drug. (Does that mean you regulate supplements? No, because then you end up in ridiculous situations like banning high doses of water-soluble B vitamins. Banning certain brands and formulations is sometimes appropriate.)

Drugs have a dose-response curve, a median lethal dose, and all the rest. People taking "supplements" (taking them seriously, beyond taking a common-or-garden multivitamin you can pick up anywhere) should be aware of this and understand the risks.

"Natural" doesn't mean safe. Polio is natural.

Not all sets of genetics tolerate all "supplements" at recommended dosages.

In vitro is not in vivo.

Animal studies are not human studies.

I got into nutrition and supplementation through bodybuilding, and within that community the knowledge that things you put in your body can hurt you, do your homework is fairly widespread and well passed-on. Unfortunately that perspective hasn't really permeated broader fitness culture.

I think the attitude of "have this problem, take this pill" (without regard for risks or better options) is mostly at fault here. I'd argue corporate pharmaceutical companies have some culpability here - "ask your doctor if X is right for you" - or don't, and just bloody do some cardio or something.

This article is only interesting if you still conflate "green tea" with "natural" and "natural" with "safe".

Re: Green tea supplements ruined my liver

#94

Post by internet555 » Thu, Oct 25, 2018, 12:19 PM UTC

bshep wrote: post #92

I work in a transplant hospital ( for liver and other organs ) and we see A LOT of people with liver damage from suplements ( green tea, valerian root, etc ) I would recommend against any supplements unless you clear them with your doctor, some are ok like VitD ( in the correct dosage ) others are downright dangerous.

I always figure if I should take something my doctor will just prescribe it

Re: Green tea supplements ruined my liver

#95

Post by lozenge » Thu, Oct 25, 2018, 12:19 PM UTC

fredley wrote: post #7

fastball wrote: post #3

Did anyone else see a dosage that he was actually taking for these green tea supplements? It seems to be missing from the article but is arguably the most important point. Anything is poisonous to the body in high enough doses. Does the producer of these capsules (apparently Vitacost) specify a maximum dosage? If so, was Jim exceeding this recommendation? Or well under it? Come on BBC.

There is no 'dosage', because—as mentioned in the article—these capsules are classified as food, not medicine: > What is it about green tea supplements that might cause harm at certain doses to some people? Scientists do not know for certain. Because green tea has been drunk for thousands of years, supplements consisting of its concentrated form are regulated in the US and Europe as foods, not medicines. That means t…

That doesn't mean there is no dosing suggestion on the packet.

Re: Green tea supplements ruined my liver

#96

Post by JustSomeNobody » Thu, Oct 25, 2018, 12:28 PM UTC

trukterious wrote: post #85

Tor3 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to be a competition bicyclist - daily training sessions of hours and hours. If you don't get enough magnesium, look at your diet. With normal healthy food you should get more than enough.

>With normal healthy food you should get more than enough. No, I looked into it some years ago and it seems unfeasible. For instance you'd have to eat about 15 stalks/heads of broccoli daily to get the RDA of magnesium, and that amount is likely suboptimal.

An ounce of pumpkin seeds and a cup of black beans and you'd only have to eat 7 servings of broccoli.

Re: Green tea supplements ruined my liver

#97

Post by fchpr » Thu, Oct 25, 2018, 12:32 PM UTC

I started using this kind of supplement -among others- and never used to eat any pill itself: instead I dissolve its content and try not to drink the particles that do not dissolve in it (like coffee sediments). Anyway liver and kidneys health are to be taken with caution when using any supplement.

Re: Green tea supplements ruined my liver

#98

Post by Amygaz » Thu, Oct 25, 2018, 12:33 PM UTC

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #74

Tor3 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The general rule is: You don't need supplements. Period. That's because supplements provide (or are supposed to provide) trace elements that you need, but you only need a little bit of it. Like minerals and certain vitamins etc. The thing is - you basically need the same (trace) amount of it, whatever your lifestyle is. And you get it through eating a normal varied diet (e.g. a little meat, vegetables, some fish and…

" So when do you not get enough of it? When you don't eat much food, or not enough of certain kinds of foods." The exception to this is Vitamin D... if you live in certain areas of the world. In general, the closer you live to the equator, the less you'll need this supplement during the winter. I wound up with a low level last winter - enough to go to the doctor for testing. My other nutrients were just fine: I'm mos…

Vitamin D supplementation is also sketchy and hotly debated topic in. Everyone agrees that it is important, but the currently accepted lower limit and whether you need to supplement if you are below is disputed. That limit was set based on extrapolating observations that were not fully controlled. So that limit has limitations basically. If you are healthy you shouldn’t bother with vit D suppl. If you have health concerns please do, but from a reliable source/brand. Supplements are not regulated.

Re: Green tea supplements ruined my liver

#99

Post by Amygaz » Thu, Oct 25, 2018, 12:37 PM UTC

munchhausen wrote: post #38

Thank you for posting this article. It gave me pause for thought. I have been taking a green tea supplement occasionally. I saw it in a vitamin store, and bought it because of the supposed benefits of antioxidants. I figured - I have a stressful job, I live in a polluted city and do drink alcohol - I probably need the antioxidants. Plus, something that's made out of green tea sounds safe, not likely do any harm, righ…

How do you, or actually how does the OP knows that it is the green tea part of the supplement, and not everything else not otherwise on the labeled that is killing is liver.

The green tea industry is massive user of pesticide, herbicides, fungicide. Extraction process can be sketchy too using re-used solvents. Water in the process can also be contaminated.

“The content of this bottle may differ from its label.”

Re: Green tea supplements ruined my liver

#100

Post by saiya-jin » Thu, Oct 25, 2018, 12:37 PM UTC

Tor3 wrote: post #59

munchhausen wrote: post #38

Thank you for posting this article. It gave me pause for thought. I have been taking a green tea supplement occasionally. I saw it in a vitamin store, and bought it because of the supposed benefits of antioxidants. I figured - I have a stressful job, I live in a polluted city and do drink alcohol - I probably need the antioxidants. Plus, something that's made out of green tea sounds safe, not likely do any harm, righ…

The general rule is: You don't need supplements. Period. That's because supplements provide (or are supposed to provide) trace elements that you need, but you only need a little bit of it. Like minerals and certain vitamins etc. The thing is - you basically need the same (trace) amount of it, whatever your lifestyle is. And you get it through eating a normal varied diet (e.g. a little meat, vegetables, some fish and…

There are tons of edge cases where taking some supplements are much better than not taking them. Your argument about some gladiator is a laughable one - who knows what they ate 2000 years ago, what their actual health was? They needed to fight and often die, nobody cared if they have a healthy retirement.

I personally take multivitamin supplements, but the key to me is moderation - half a tablet on workout day, which has all the vitamins in 50% daily dose, and range of minerals of 15% daily dose, drank with lunch. No crazy doses of something specific. It helps with regeneration of muscles, joints and whatnot. Actually, my teeth got measurably harder according to my dentist after I started this regime.

The thing is, I work out these days 5x pretty hard during work week (weights, various running/cardio/intervals), mostly 1x climbing session on the evening, and 1-2 multihour hikes with 5-15kg backpack over weekend (or something similar). Those advices of daily dosages are for people smaller than me (188cm, 93kg), doing fraction of exercises compared to me. Could I do all of this without any supplement? Of course. But so far I haven't heard any solid reason why, because it measurably helps in many aspects of my health and wellbeing.