Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Green tea supplements ruined my liver

bbc.co.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 167 posts

Re: Green tea supplements ruined my liver

#31

Post by nemo846 »

fredley wrote: post #7
fastball wrote: post #3

Did anyone else see a dosage that he was actually taking for these green tea supplements? It seems to be missing from the article but is arguably the most important point. Anything is poisonous to the body in high enough doses. Does the producer of these capsules (apparently Vitacost) specify a maximum dosage? If so, was Jim exceeding this recommendation? Or well under it? Come on BBC.

There is no 'dosage', because—as mentioned in the article—these capsules are classified as food, not medicine: > What is it about green tea supplements that might cause harm at certain doses to some people? Scientists do not know for certain. Because green tea has been drunk for thousands of years, supplements consisting of its concentrated form are regulated in the US and Europe as foods, not medicines. That means t…

Supplements are effectively unregulated in the US if Last Week Tonight is correct.

https://youtu.be/WA0wKeokWUU

Re: Green tea supplements ruined my liver

#32

Post by zone411 »

CaptainZapp wrote: post #13

Good grief! Why not drink green tea if you're interested in the positive effects of green tea? Apart from its positive effects it's a fantastic drink.

Umm because the studies that showed positive effects were not from drinking green tea but from concentrated supplements.

Re: Green tea supplements ruined my liver

#33

Post by nemo846 »

simion314 wrote: post #14
fastball wrote: post #3

Did anyone else see a dosage that he was actually taking for these green tea supplements? It seems to be missing from the article but is arguably the most important point. Anything is poisonous to the body in high enough doses. Does the producer of these capsules (apparently Vitacost) specify a maximum dosage? If so, was Jim exceeding this recommendation? Or well under it? Come on BBC.

They mentioned that since the green tea was consumed from a long time it is clasified as food, so nobody is forced to test for side effects, dosage or effectiveness. Other issues could be caused if the plant supplement contains also different plants, there could be similar plants that the plant collectors could slip in(by mistake or not) (I mean in general I do not know how the green tea is collected) , or the plants…

> As an example my son when he was young he liked carrot juice, so give it to him daily, when we went to the doctor she noticed he had is skin colored and told us to stop, I had no idea that too much carrots can be bad

Well in your son’s case, it’s not harmful per se according to Wikipedia, Carotenosis is harmless - you will just look orange.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carotenosis

Re: Green tea supplements ruined my liver

#34

Post by Gibbon1 »

vackosar wrote: post #4

> Concern has focused on a potentially toxic ingredient called Epigallocatechin-3-gallate or EGCG, the most abundant of the naturally occurring compounds with antioxidant properties in green tea, called catechins. There are likely to be a number of factors that might make an individual susceptible to harm from EGCG including genetics, and the way supplements are used.

Here is another where about 5-10% of people have genetic susceptibility to aristolochic acid, causing kidney damage and cancer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristolochia#Herbalism,_toxici...

Re: Green tea supplements ruined my liver

#35

Post by rATRIJS »

IloveHN84 wrote: post #21

I'm in a holding pattern to since more than 6 weeks now because of increased values of the liver. No alcohol, no smoke, always trying to be fit with 3x week sport. Became suddenly yellow, done the liver-biopsy, nothing came out and still with high liver values (GPT, GOT). None of doctors have a fucking idea of what I have. Done all tests against all the kind of Hepatitis, but all of them were negative.

I become yellow from time to time ( although hasn't happened in a few years ) and was diagnosed with Gilbert's syndrome ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert%27s_syndrome ).

First time it happened when I was ~15 and had to stay in hospital for a week or so until they figured out what was happening.

For me physical over-exhaustion, too much spicy food or too much alcohol can / could trigger this.

Re: Green tea supplements ruined my liver

#36

Post by adminu »

tomhoward wrote: post #22
arethuza wrote: post #18

In This is Going to Hurt: Secret Diaries of a Junior Doctor (strongly recommended) there is a part where a consultant has a rant about "natural not meaning safe" and mentions a plant in his garden that would kill you if you sat under it for ten minutes...

I think everyone understands that plenty of things in nature are poisonous or dangerous in other ways. But it's also reasonable to trust our intuition that food is generally better - i.e., more easily digested and more nutritionally complete - the closer it is to its natural form. In the linked article, the supplement in question was was far from natural; it was highly refined and concentrated. So the cause of the da…

> I think everyone understands that plenty of things in nature are poisonous or dangerous in other ways

I think, many do not, at all.

> So the cause of the damage in this case was not from consuming a natural product, but from taking a highly _unnatural_ product.

There is a big difference in your definition of natural and what is marketed as natural.

Re: Green tea supplements ruined my liver

#37

Post by arkades »

beagle3 wrote: post #27
fredley wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no 'dosage', because—as mentioned in the article—these capsules are classified as food, not medicine: > What is it about green tea supplements that might cause harm at certain doses to some people? Scientists do not know for certain. Because green tea has been drunk for thousands of years, supplements consisting of its concentrated form are regulated in the US and Europe as foods, not medicines. That means t…

Same with water, table salt (NaCl), coffee, pomegranate juice and many other things. Dose makes the poison, some people are capable of handling more, and some less. Tea, among other things, has caffeine in it, and enough caffeine will kill you, but other than in pill form, you’ll likely not manage to get to the threshold because you’ll start vomiting way earlier. It’s possible that there are other compounds harmful a…

Average caffeine pill is 100mg (roughly on par with a cup of tea or coffee). Caff can be fatal for adults at about 10g of consumption (Heckman 2010) - about 100 caffeine pills.

Caffeine toxicity can happen much earlier, but it's mostly concerning in combination with other substances. Caff on its own ... it's really, really hard to get to a dangerous dose inadvertently.

If the substance is pure, and the dosage is correctly labeled. Neither of which is especially common for nutritional supplements.

The key to this article is the line, "catechin doses at or above 800mg may pose health concerns." Pop over to amazon and look at one of the top results for green tea extract: https://www.amazon.com/NOW-Green-Tea-Extract-Capsules/dp/B00... A single pill is 160mg.

Re: Green tea supplements ruined my liver

#38

Post by munchhausen »

Thank you for posting this article. It gave me pause for thought.

I have been taking a green tea supplement occasionally. I saw it in a vitamin store, and bought it because of the supposed benefits of antioxidants. I figured - I have a stressful job, I live in a polluted city and do drink alcohol - I probably need the antioxidants. Plus, something that's made out of green tea sounds safe, not likely do any harm, right?

Well. I am disposing of the supplement, obviously. More to the point, though, I have to revisit my whole thinking process around supplements. I take a bunch of them, and it's purely on the basis of "I read a study somewhere or other that this is supposed to be good for you" - and not because I have a specific health concern that I need to address.

This approach suddenly does not seem so sane anymore, and I need to take a step back and rethink what I am doing here.

It's amazing how easy it is to gradually lose touch with your common sense, simply because you read the "right" subreddits (in this particular case, /r/nootropics), and start to subscribe to the hype.

Re: Green tea supplements ruined my liver

#39

Post by arkades »

rATRIJS wrote: post #35
IloveHN84 wrote: post #21

I'm in a holding pattern to since more than 6 weeks now because of increased values of the liver. No alcohol, no smoke, always trying to be fit with 3x week sport. Became suddenly yellow, done the liver-biopsy, nothing came out and still with high liver values (GPT, GOT). None of doctors have a fucking idea of what I have. Done all tests against all the kind of Hepatitis, but all of them were negative.

I become yellow from time to time ( although hasn't happened in a few years ) and was diagnosed with Gilbert's syndrome ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert%27s_syndrome ). First time it happened when I was ~15 and had to stay in hospital for a week or so until they figured out what was happening. For me physical over-exhaustion, too much spicy food or too much alcohol can / could trigger this.

> increased values of the liver.

Gilbert syndrome doesn't affect any liver function tests aside from unconjugated bilirubin - a value that reflects a backup of bilirubin processing, and not a liver-damaging process.

Re: Green tea supplements ruined my liver

#40

Post by arkades »

IloveHN84 wrote: post #21

I'm in a holding pattern to since more than 6 weeks now because of increased values of the liver. No alcohol, no smoke, always trying to be fit with 3x week sport. Became suddenly yellow, done the liver-biopsy, nothing came out and still with high liver values (GPT, GOT). None of doctors have a fucking idea of what I have. Done all tests against all the kind of Hepatitis, but all of them were negative.

Interested in elaborating and sharing some lab values and biopsy findings? Sounds interesting.
Post reply on HN