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America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

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Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, as long as we are speaking in hyperbole, everyone needs to realize that K-12 CS education needs CS teachers, who are disproportionately not those international students who either get cushy jobs in SV or go home.

You're getting at the root of the problem: teaching in the U.S. is a low-paid, low-status position. Teaching in other countries is a decently-paid, high-status position. This directly translates into job desirability and ability to attract qualified candidates. I had some good teachers growing up, as well as a number of bad ones. The good ones all fell into one of these categories: 1) they were young and idealistic 2…

I'm a current teacher (looking to get out), and I can completely agree with the cultural differences in how people treat us. I teach in the rural South, and, for one, there's not a culture of education here. People actively disdain schools, even high school, and don't understand the importance because they (and their parents) were able to get jobs without it; this gets passed on to their kids as well.

When they show up at parent-teacher conferences, they're usually mad that little Johnny is failing...even when little Johnny has literally turned in nothing all year, even classwork you gave them time in class to do. And hasn't retaken that test you've given him three times to do it at home. But it's my fault that I just don't get him a straight passing grade, despite all this. Or, their parents don't come/get mad when the kids cheat and get marked for it, etc. And, of course, often the parents of the best students do come, when they're the ones I need to talk to the least!

But, contrast them with my Hispanic students (particularly the Guatemalan ones, and the Mexican ones; the Puerto Rican ones are different). The Guatemalan students themselves are always so focused and wanting to pay attention, and the two Mexican girls usually are. They get frustrated at the Puerto Ricans, who goof off a lot.

Now, I don't see a lot of their parents, but that's more because they all work night shift (as do my students). However, if I offered (extra) credit for them to email/call, or show up to parent teacher conferences, every single one of them would be there. And usually they contact us, often through their kid since they don't speak much English, if their grades drop asking what the kid can change. It's very different in the attitude they have towards teachers compared to my American students (in general), and I think anyone who deals with a lot of them daily and gets to know them (one class is solely Hispanic students, so I don't have to worry about balancing language issues between them and American ones).

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A shortage of skilled citizens is another way of saying costly labor. Better access for US citizens to universities and healthcare will not be gained by importing ever cheaper highly skilled labor, especially labor that like you is here to take what they can, selfishly, before they jump ship. The k-12 numbers are easy to find. Google Pisa.

> Better access for US citizens to universities and healthcare will not be gained by importing ever cheaper highly skilled labor I believe I already stated that more immigration is not the solution, in my first comment in this thread. > especially labor that like you is here to take what they can, selfishly, before they jump ship. What's with the hostility and personal attacks? I'm paying the same taxes are everyone…

I’m not judging you. You came here because you had personal desires that, noble or not, were not fulfilled. And you will leave for that same reason. That seems like pretty common human behavior to me and so I make no judgements about your morals, but I will point out that a less selfish way of seeing the world might lead you to ask yourself how you can have a positive impact and make your new home a better place. Perhaps that sense of personal responsibility is an American affectation. As one of our leaders once said, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. That seems even more apropos for those who have made the conscious decision to adopt this place as their home.

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#343
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They restricted immigration from countries who posed a threat. That threat was defined previously. You're being disingenuous in claiming it was motivated by religion. You're incorrect in stating it restricted legal immigration. It stopped immigration by countries deemed a threat to the security of the US by Congress and the previous administration.

Oh, come on, there was a given number of legal immigrants and now there are fewer because of a change in government policies, that's a restriction on legal immigration. You're arguing it's justified, but stating it didn't reduce legal immigration is simply incorrect. Because it did. I also don't think it's disingenuous in stating it was motivated by religion when the circuit court for Hawaii declared it was and 4 mem…

Can you provide a source for that? I tried finding information showing a decrease in legal immigration, but couldn't find any statistics that were current.

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do the comparison again controlling on country of origin. E.g., how do US citizen students with families from Japan compare with students still in Japan? Instead of Japan, substitute Canada, India, Pakistan, the Philippines, South Korea, England, Germany, Finland, Sweden, Norway, the Baltic countries, the Balkan countries, Austria, Switzerland, Israel, Poland, Russia, France, Spain, Italy, Singapore, Turkey, Iraq, Ir…

The US is not uniquely diverse, Canada and Australia among other countries have a higher percentage of foreign born population.

Foreign born doesn’t necessarily mean diverse.

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#345
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about allocating some large number of 6 year work visas by a pure auction? The visa goes with the person, they can work anywhere, and after the visa is up can be a US citizen with minimal hassle. Employers could pay the fee for people to come and work for them, if they like, with a claw-back clause, if necessary. It would be interesting to see what the price would be for such a visa.

> The visa goes with the person, they can work anywhere, and after the visa is up can be a US citizen with minimal hassle. You basically described a green card (except it's nominally five years to citizenship, not six).

Yes. A green card auction would be great. Expand it to some large number and get rid of all the huge variety of visas and paths to citizenship. Maybe half or more of all immigration to the US could go this route.

After some years of high demand and high prices, I imagine that the price would drop to some stable level. When that happened, we might have an opportunity to bring some sanity to the illegal immigration problem in the US. In some more sane world, both parties might agree that a person that can prove they have been in the US for some number of years can pay for a green card at the auction rate (gov financing available).

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it's my fault, but I haven't found "easily accessible data" on the quality of elementary and middle school education, which is something a lot of people seem to be ignoring in this discussion. Sure, people might be motivated to immigrate here by your universities. Even when I was a teenager growing up in an Eastern European country, I had heard of MIT and dreamed of studying there. But there's a long road to go…

> that outcome being an apparent shortage of your own skilled citizens. The interesting thing is even when we had millions of people out of work who worked in technical fields, SV and other major tech hubs were pushing for even more H1-B's. It really has nothing to do with skilled citizens and more to do with the salaries they demand which tend to be on the scale of 1-3 times more expensive to hire and keep then the…

From my personal experience and observation, a large amount of employers that say that they can't fill their open positions, skilled or unskilled, have unrealistically high standards. They would rather leave a position unfilled than risk making a bad hiring decision. To give them a benefit of doubt, they might have more to loose from a bad hire than a successful one.

Of course, I don't have any direct experience with the few companies that are famous for pushing the boundaries of the H-1B visa.

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#347
Theres a ton of talk about skilled immigrants and the american education system, and as a blue-collar automotive mechanic, I have no problem with immigrant doctors and engineers. Where I see the real problem is unskilled immigrants.

Take for example a job posting I had up for more than 3 months. I needed a solid mid-level mechanic. oil/air/tires/suspension and electrical a plus. I dont want my apprentices doing this work because theyre learning to do manifold rebuilds and such. And i dont want my old timers doing it because it will cost a fortune and i need them on harder problems.

So for weeks on end, I get at least 3 interviews a day from grossly unqualified immigrants. Why immigrants? nobody wants a kid who grows up to be a successful mechanic i guess. Everyone "goes to college" now. just ask my alignment tech with a masters in english.

- Ive had a slew of random tourists from europe backpacking around in the US who want a job, and cant seem to understand the gravity of a visa violation. They all want three times what I'm paying and health insurance.

- Ive got college drop-outs from china, russia, you name it, who either blew through all their money or were never qualified for college in the first place, and need something to keep afloat while they fake college.

- and finally, perhaps most controversially, I have central and south americans. Theyre either trapped here because of american immigration policy, or theyre fresh off the boat with a slip of paper written by a friend dictating what they will work for in cash. Most of them speak about 8 words of english. They are radioactive as far as im concerned; you would be insane to hire them.

We're always going to need doctors and engineers. not everyone grows up to be a rocket scientist, and thats okay. But im frustrated at how Americans have turned trade jobs (plumbing, auto work, electricians, linemen, pipefitters, etc...) into some kind of field that no kid can ever enter lest they be disowned.

update: I should clarify. These applicants are upset they must wait 90 days for benefits. we do provide health/dental/401k, just not on day one.

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#348
post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Both of these would ensure that we can get smart and talented individuals from outside the US and would drastically improve the ability for the US to compete while continuing to provide broad-based wage increases. As an immigrant, I'm all for better and easier immigration system. As a parent of an 11 year old, I can tell you that what your country really needs is not more smart and talented immigrants, but better e…

America's education is a paradox. The U.S. produces many of the world's great intellectuals, inventors and engineers. So how does it do it if the education system is that bad? The answer is that it isn't. This is what I've observed: Its K-12 education system isn't that great in general, but it's good enough. Its colleges however do a good job filtering the non-academically inclined and catching up those remaining to…

I can agree that the graduate level in the US is good, and sometimes the best. But as someone who studied in Europe and taught undergrads in the US, they were appallingly poor students, entitled, and lazy. The university was and is considered (roughly) in the top 15% in national academic rankings, and one of the top for its region. No way they were graduating at the same level as many other countries.

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Middle America will be fine; Chicago, KC, Pittsburgh, etc. can and do compete with the coasts for skilled labor! These cities may as well be "coastal" relative to their regions. There are a lot of hurting small PA towns less than 100 miles away from Pittsburgh experiencing a brain drain, for example.

> These cities may as well be "coastal" relative to their regions. IF KC and Pittsburgh aren't "middle america", then the term ceases to have much of a meaning and we might as well stick with "rural".

KC and Pittsburgh metro areas have populations over 2M.

There are a lot of smaller metro areas that are far rural, but aren't big cities - for example, my hometown - Erie, PA, which has a metro population of just over 275k - is very much a city - but is too far from Pittsburgh to benefit from their economic growth. Pittsburgh is fine, but Erie is in decline.

If "middle america" refers to every non-rural city between the coasts, then it is a meaningless term. There is too much economic variation to lump them all together for a single analysis.

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#350

Theres a ton of talk about skilled immigrants and the american education system, and as a blue-collar automotive mechanic, I have no problem with immigrant doctors and engineers. Where I see the real problem is unskilled immigrants. Take for example a job posting I had up for more than 3 months. I needed a solid mid-level mechanic. oil/air/tires/suspension and electrical a plus. I dont want my apprentices doing this…

I respect everything you're saying, but you kinda lost me at, "They all want ... health insurance".

Yes, indeed... as long as a soul-crushing job sitting in a chair and staring at a screen comes with health coverage, and a job in the trades does not, then my hope as a father is that my kids will take the health coverage route. Until we fix our crazy system, blue collar work it is a very frightening prospect.

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