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Linus Torvalds Back in Charge of Linux

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Re: Linus Torvalds Back in Charge of Linux

#81

Post by echaozh »

aninhumer wrote: post #72
jf- wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Life creates a power dynamic which can be abused in this way. This is getting ridiculous. Have some minimal set of rules so that people, including important people, can’t be outright nasty to each other and leave it at that. There is absolutely no need for all this ideological baggage.

>Life creates a power dynamic which can be abused in this way. And such dynamics should be acknowledged and opposed wherever they exist. >Have some minimal set of rules Except as I said, these rules are frequently ignored or applied less fairly in one way or another for those with "merit".

I think the very first rule of life is to live. If someone helps you live when otherwise you're going to die, you should tolerate more of his weirdness. If someone helps you live better when otherwise you're going to be quite miserable, you should also be more tolerant. I think this is the logic of meritocracy, and the logic behind capitalism.

You either believe in capitalism and thus meritocracy as its twin, or neither. Why do capitalists get to take away so much profit, and why should we award patents to inventors, if we don't reward those with "merit"?

Re: Linus Torvalds Back in Charge of Linux

#82

Post by cesarb »

pandapower2 wrote: post #12

I don't know what I thought would happen exactly but when he said he was taking time away I certainly imagined it would be a lot longer than a month.

To me on the other hand, it was obvious that he would be back as soon as 4.19 was released and the 4.20 merge window opened (the kernel release cycle has two phases, the merge window where new features and the bulk of the changes come in, and a phase where only bug fixes are supposed to come in). He took advantage of the time when the merge window was closed, since it's a less hectic period, and handed over maintenance to someone who already does something similar (Greg KH maintains the "stable" trees, which also accept only bug fixes).

Re: Linus Torvalds Back in Charge of Linux

#83

Post by aninhumer »

jf- wrote: post #46
ghusbands wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the point is that the unprivileged don't get the same opportunities in many ways, so they don't do so well in tests but they still do well at the job; therefore, you need to give them extra leeway during recruiting and such. Also, the experience of the less privileged is that some people use claimed-impartial tests and barriers to exclude them in particular, and so when a test comes along it is demotivating,…

From an organisation’s point of view, does it matter how one person came to be a better performer than another? Surely they just care about current state: this person performs better than this other person now . Perhaps had their backgrounds been different, their performance would be different. Perhaps if the under-performer had more training, their performance would be better. But right now, things aren’t different.…

This only makes sense if you assume the organisation's interest is only to maximise productivity in the short term.

An open source organisation may explicitly be interested in attracting marginalised people into the tech sector, to improve equality in society as a whole.

Or even from a cynical perspective, a profit-led corporation may desire to increase their ability to hire competent but undervalued (and thus cheaper) employees in future.

Re: Linus Torvalds Back in Charge of Linux

#84

Post by finnthehuman »

>Jon Corbet, kernel developer and editor of LWN, thinks the Linux community will become less of what was once a "Wild West world with dueling developers and more of a professional developer community."

Well, that's what all this has always been about right? Power-washing the personality out of open source by subverting the popular movement of the day. A group wants something but there are very few actionable steps to achieve it, and the ones that do exist are long term investments. They're turned into unwitting campaigners for a different goal when someone provides them an easy answer that's really a thin veneer over a different purpose.

Re: Linus Torvalds Back in Charge of Linux

#85

Post by aninhumer »

echaozh wrote: post #81
aninhumer wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Life creates a power dynamic which can be abused in this way. And such dynamics should be acknowledged and opposed wherever they exist. >Have some minimal set of rules Except as I said, these rules are frequently ignored or applied less fairly in one way or another for those with "merit".

I think the very first rule of life is to live. If someone helps you live when otherwise you're going to die, you should tolerate more of his weirdness. If someone helps you live better when otherwise you're going to be quite miserable, you should also be more tolerant. I think this is the logic of meritocracy, and the logic behind capitalism. You either believe in capitalism and thus meritocracy as its twin, or neit…

>If someone helps you live when otherwise you're going to die, you should tolerate more of his weirdness.

Yes, if someone has control over your life or death, you should probably do what they say.

That is what most people call "violent coercion".

>You either believe in capitalism and thus meritocracy as its twin, or neither.

Well, quite...

Re: Linus Torvalds Back in Charge of Linux

#86

Post by lordlimecat »

m_mueller wrote: post #39
chroma wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here’s one: https://twitter.com/CoralineAda/status/874642259672801280 > “Meritocracy” is just thinly veiled misogyny and white supremacy propping up fragile cis het white men’s egos. Or https://twitter.com/CoralineAda/status/1029952846492565504 > “Reverse racism” is such a weird phrase for “justice”. Or https://twitter.com/CoralineAda/status/823064825366360065 > Why didn’t anyone punch the reporter giving the nazi ai…

OK, so I can't really find fault with the CoC itself, but the motivation as described in your link is indeed questionable, though I'd say worthy of discussion: > Studies have shown that organizational cultures that value meritocracy often result in greater inequality. People with “merit” are often excused for their bad behavior in public spaces based on the value of their technical contributions. Meritocracy also nai…

> Studies have shown that organizational cultures that value meritocracy often result in greater inequality

Inequality is not in and of itself a bad thing. It is the reasons for that inequality that can be unjust.

If you and I are unequal in society either because you made poor decisions or else were unwilling to work as hard as me, that is in fact "just" even if it is not "equal". Equality at all costs simply does not work, which is why it has failed every time humanity has tried to enforce it on society.

We should fight inequality that results from factors like ethnicity, ideology, and disability, but what's interesting to note is that people like Coraline have shown no qualms about creating inequality for those with different political views-- calling even for the explulsion of OSS devs from projects where their only crime is holding a different political view in private.

It's hard to read her comments and the phrasing of the CoC and not think that its purpose is to allow purging those who commit "wrongthink".

Re: Linus Torvalds Back in Charge of Linux

#87

Post by Vinnl »

m_mueller wrote: post #39
chroma wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here’s one: https://twitter.com/CoralineAda/status/874642259672801280 > “Meritocracy” is just thinly veiled misogyny and white supremacy propping up fragile cis het white men’s egos. Or https://twitter.com/CoralineAda/status/1029952846492565504 > “Reverse racism” is such a weird phrase for “justice”. Or https://twitter.com/CoralineAda/status/823064825366360065 > Why didn’t anyone punch the reporter giving the nazi ai…

OK, so I can't really find fault with the CoC itself, but the motivation as described in your link is indeed questionable, though I'd say worthy of discussion: > Studies have shown that organizational cultures that value meritocracy often result in greater inequality. People with “merit” are often excused for their bad behavior in public spaces based on the value of their technical contributions. Meritocracy also nai…

I think what people mean is that purported meritocracies aren't often actual meritocracies, since unequal opportunities will give some people's contributions more weight than others.

Unfortunately, rather than explaining how self-proclaimed meritocracies often aren't actually judging on merit, such remarks often get wrapped in remarks about cis white males or whatever (or at least - the ones that make the rounds do), which understandably leads to people getting defensive.

Additionally, as a sibling comment shows, there also appears to be some misleading research, which I think is more likely to happen when arguments like these become as heated as they are.

Thus, I'm not sure whether the argument is true or not. However, I think it's good to separate it from the loud voices unsuccessfully making it, and to try to consider it on its own... merits.

Re: Linus Torvalds Back in Charge of Linux

#88

Post by chongli »

aninhumer wrote: post #72
jf- wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Life creates a power dynamic which can be abused in this way. This is getting ridiculous. Have some minimal set of rules so that people, including important people, can’t be outright nasty to each other and leave it at that. There is absolutely no need for all this ideological baggage.

>Life creates a power dynamic which can be abused in this way. And such dynamics should be acknowledged and opposed wherever they exist. >Have some minimal set of rules Except as I said, these rules are frequently ignored or applied less fairly in one way or another for those with "merit".

And such dynamics should be acknowledged and opposed wherever they exist.

Power itself can't be opposed. By definition, opposition doesn't exist without power.

Abuse can be opposed and to some extent mitigated but it's not at all a static game. When you build walls humans go around them, climb over them, dig under them, or break through them. There is no wall that one person can build that another cannot overcome.

Re: Linus Torvalds Back in Charge of Linux

#89

Post by lordlimecat »

aninhumer wrote: post #66
jf- wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A very interesting observation is that in the extreme "meritocracy" 100% implies that people with merit should be excused for their bad behavior in public spaces based on the value of their technical contributions. That’s a non sequitur. There’s no reason that a meritocracy must allow bad behaviour from high performing contributors. Linus’s behaviour has been accepted, even lauded by certain members of the communit…

>The simple fact is that people who have power tend to abuse that power, but that has nothing to do with meritocracy as a concept. Except that by definition, meritocracy creates a power dynamic which can be abused in this way. Those with "merit" are trusted and respected more than those without. This means that complaints about their behaviour are more often ignored or dismissed. And even when bad behaviour is too bl…

>In theory, one could define "merit" in a way that recognises behaviour alongside technical contributions, but in practice that is rarely how the term is interpreted by tech communities.

Linus' contribution is not just the code he commits, but his ability to organize and marshall developers. That ability is tied to his communication skills.

To the extent that his discourse drives skilled developers away, it is a detriment which is presumably why he is working on it. If it were to get extreme and he became unable to lead due to his toxicity, "meritocracy" would imply that he would step down or be removed.

Re: Linus Torvalds Back in Charge of Linux

#90

Post by jf- »

aninhumer wrote: post #85
echaozh wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the very first rule of life is to live. If someone helps you live when otherwise you're going to die, you should tolerate more of his weirdness. If someone helps you live better when otherwise you're going to be quite miserable, you should also be more tolerant. I think this is the logic of meritocracy, and the logic behind capitalism. You either believe in capitalism and thus meritocracy as its twin, or neit…

>If someone helps you live when otherwise you're going to die, you should tolerate more of his weirdness. Yes, if someone has control over your life or death, you should probably do what they say. That is what most people call "violent coercion". >You either believe in capitalism and thus meritocracy as its twin, or neither. Well, quite...

>If someone helps you live when otherwise you're going to die

>That is what most people call “violent coercion”.

Really? Is it?

There’s no point in continuing here, I’m afraid we’re too far apart to gain anything from this discussion. Have a good day.

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