Why non-Muslims are converting to sharia finance • Hacker News Board

Re: Why non-Muslims are converting to sharia finance

#91

Post by mkaziz » Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 1:56 PM UTC

gadders wrote: post #68

n4r9 wrote: post #32

I like the idea of more ethical banks, but I think the article is overselling the popularity of Islamic institutions in the UK. I live in London and whilst I'm aware that Sharia banking exists as a concept, I've never heard of BLME. Also the opening sentence comes off as slightly absurd: >THE HALAL restaurants established by Muslim migrants in Britain quickly inspired an almost religious following among non-believers…

>THE HALAL restaurants established by Muslim migrants in Britain quickly inspired an almost religious following among non-believers. I think some people (not massive numbers, admittedly) avoid Halal restaurants/meat because the method of slaughter is less humane and doesn't typically involve stunning the animal first.

From my understanding, stunning is still done in the West for producing halal meat- you just have to be careful not to kill the animal, so usually lower-level shocks are used.

Re: Why non-Muslims are converting to sharia finance

#92

Post by tareqak » Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 1:57 PM UTC

ElBarto wrote: post #77

mmjaa wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm quite content with investing in the Middle East and Pakistan over the 'tobacco guys'. One group has been responsible for wilfully murdering hundreds of thousands of innocent people, including children, for decades. The other group is just likely to follow a religion I'm not a member of ..

Saudi Arabia is a peace-loving country that wouldn't harm a fly.

There is enough bad to go around: Saudi Arabia and Phillip-Morris have both done things worthy of disrepute.

I don’t know if these banks are public, but maybe it’s possible to find out who their investors are? That information has to be registered with the UK government, and possibly also with the EU.

Re: Why non-Muslims are converting to sharia finance

#93

Post by n4r9 » Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 1:58 PM UTC

vectorEQ wrote: post #78

n4r9 wrote: post #32

I like the idea of more ethical banks, but I think the article is overselling the popularity of Islamic institutions in the UK. I live in London and whilst I'm aware that Sharia banking exists as a concept, I've never heard of BLME. Also the opening sentence comes off as slightly absurd: >THE HALAL restaurants established by Muslim migrants in Britain quickly inspired an almost religious following among non-believers…

sharia /ʃəˈriːə/Submit noun Islamic canonical law based on the teachings of the Koran and the traditions of the Prophet (Hadith and Sunna), prescribing both religious and secular duties and sometimes retributive penalties for lawbreaking. It has generally been supplemented by legislation adapted to the conditions of the day, though the manner in which it should be applied in modern states is a subject of dispute betw…

I said I like the idea of ethical banking. I didn't say I agreed that Sharia banking is ethical. My jury is out on that as I haven't looked into it much. Your argument isn't very persuasive anyway: what some countries' interpretation of Sharia law is, is likely to differ a lot from what a bank practices in the UK.

Re: Why non-Muslims are converting to sharia finance

#94

Post by projectramo » Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 1:59 PM UTC

Mengkudulangsat wrote: post #66

I had the opportunity to translate technical documents for both conventional and sharia financial products a few years ago, and I find the market fascination of them mind-boggling. These products seemed to incorporate convoluted jargon and concepts which dramatically increased complexity but at the same time, produced no extra utility for end-users. On top of that, the addition of ongoing shariah-compliance introduce…

This is my take:

Interest is just another term for the time value of money. The time value of money is a fact of life as long as there are opportunities in the world to invest in something that is productive.

Therein lies the problem: you can't explicitly charge interest, but you are still subject to the time value of money.

The only option is to describe/disguise the time value of money in terms that don't bring up interest. That is a juggling act because interest is really the simplest (imho) way of understanding it.

So you get a lot of obfuscation.

Re: Why non-Muslims are converting to sharia finance

#95

Post by mkaziz » Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 2:02 PM UTC

tareqak wrote: post #52

ElBarto wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So-called 'sharia finance' isn't more ethical, not that there anything unethical with charging interests. What they do is a lot of mental gymnastics to avoid calling what you pay for a loan 'interest'.

That's the argument of Tarek El Diwany. From the second last paragraph of the article: Some purists dislike the way modern sharia finance is run. Tarek El Diwany, a consultant, says banks are devising loopholes to sell nominally sharia-compliant products that are essentially the same as any other. For 1,400 years Islamic finance has been based on mutual ownership and profit-sharing, he says. But most sharia deposits…

do you have recommendations for reading up on this?

Re: Why non-Muslims are converting to sharia finance

#96

Post by rleigh » Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 2:04 PM UTC

hjek wrote: post #38

n4r9 wrote: post #32

I like the idea of more ethical banks, but I think the article is overselling the popularity of Islamic institutions in the UK. I live in London and whilst I'm aware that Sharia banking exists as a concept, I've never heard of BLME. Also the opening sentence comes off as slightly absurd: >THE HALAL restaurants established by Muslim migrants in Britain quickly inspired an almost religious following among non-believers…

Here in UK, I'm a fan of halal chippies as they always use vegetable oil instead of beef dripping for their chips and patties.

That's not a reason to be a fan. It's much unhealthier. Unless they are changing out the vegetable oil every day then it carries a much bigger cancer risk (due to aldehydes).

Re: Why non-Muslims are converting to sharia finance

#97

Post by n4r9 » Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 2:10 PM UTC

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #79

ioewjfowe wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It might be the case that e.g. Lebanese or Indian cuisine is popular among non-Muslim Brits Umm.. Majority of indians are hindus not muslims.

I think the point was that it's "ethnic food from somewhere in southern Asia that's further west than Myanmar or so" not that it conforms to any particular religious requirement.

It's not even that! It's only that so-called "Indian" restaurants in the UK are halal more often than average. From my understanding most dishes you get in those restaurants in the UK are different to what you would actually get served anywhere in south-east Asia.

Re: Why non-Muslims are converting to sharia finance

#98

Post by stealthcat » Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 2:10 PM UTC

Mengkudulangsat wrote: post #66

I had the opportunity to translate technical documents for both conventional and sharia financial products a few years ago, and I find the market fascination of them mind-boggling. These products seemed to incorporate convoluted jargon and concepts which dramatically increased complexity but at the same time, produced no extra utility for end-users. On top of that, the addition of ongoing shariah-compliance introduce…

>Even as a muslim myself, I feel like sharia finance is a step backwards.

Are you an actual muslim or just by name. Don't invalidate your eemaan by saying Islam is inferior to man-made system. Even if you don't like the mufti and scholars, they've done the ijtihad based on the Quran and Sunnah for the best of muslims, and they are the responsible ones, not you.

I don't know your intent but, Be EXTRA careful with your words.

Remember hadeeth where at the end of times, people are muslims in the day but kaafirs in the evening.

Your choice of words matter.

Re: Why non-Muslims are converting to sharia finance

#99

Post by matthewmacleod » Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 2:12 PM UTC

ru999gol wrote: post #75

SuoDuanDao wrote: post #36

The fact that central banks have set the interest rate near zero already must play a role.

It seems if you save money at the bank they will actually loose money for you since their interest rate is lower than inflation. The financial market is such a clusterfuck lmao

That’s kind of the point of low interest rates isn’t it? The idea is that this encourages money to move around the economy instead of sitting there accumulating interest.

Re: Why non-Muslims are converting to sharia finance

#100

Post by pavel_lishin » Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 2:14 PM UTC

stealthcat wrote: post #98

Mengkudulangsat wrote: post #66

I had the opportunity to translate technical documents for both conventional and sharia financial products a few years ago, and I find the market fascination of them mind-boggling. These products seemed to incorporate convoluted jargon and concepts which dramatically increased complexity but at the same time, produced no extra utility for end-users. On top of that, the addition of ongoing shariah-compliance introduce…

>Even as a muslim myself, I feel like sharia finance is a step backwards. Are you an actual muslim or just by name. Don't invalidate your eemaan by saying Islam is inferior to man-made system. Even if you don't like the mufti and scholars, they've done the ijtihad based on the Quran and Sunnah for the best of muslims, and they are the responsible ones, not you. I don't know your intent but, Be EXTRA careful with your…

> Are you an actual muslim or just by name.

Neat, I've never seen a No True Muslim fallacy before.