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Apple CEO Tim Cook Calling for Bloomberg to Retract Its Chinese Spy Chip Story

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Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook Calling for Bloomberg to Retract Its Chinese Spy Chip Story

#311

Post by scrps »

mattzito wrote: post #309
garmaine wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people in this thread have zero experience with national security issues, and the ACLU/EFF opinions are more what those organizations feel should be the constitutional interpretation, not what actual circumstance is. You certainly can be compelled to say certain things to keep classified information secret, at risk of federal prison or worse, and this is the same law that is being abused for NSLs.

I’ve seen you make this claim several times in this thread, but haven’t provided any evidence. Can you provide a source that says that the federal government can compel false statements as part of national security demands?

I was curious about this as well and did a bit of searching around (I didn't dig that deeply and IANAL) and found this:

https://www.yalelawjournal.org/forum/warrant-canaries-and-di...

Specifically Section IV, subsection C

"Canaries and the First Amendment Status of Compelled Lies"

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook Calling for Bloomberg to Retract Its Chinese Spy Chip Story

#312

Post by sneak »

lwansbrough wrote: post #143
sneak wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, manufacture the high security chips on one of the many 7nm fabs in the US. I suppose it also follows that the fab and design should be staffed only as NOFORN? That rules out the lead on the Apple silicon team. I don’t think you understand how this works. This isn’t a nationalism vs globalism thing.

You're the one that jumped from no foreign production to no "foreign" employees. Of course there's a difference between a factory operating under the supervision of the People's Liberation Army and an immigrant working in a lead role at a company. My comment is basically a pre-reaction to nationalists who would want to use this situation as an excuse to bring as much manufacturing work home as possible, even if it do…

Who is the adversary, though? You assume chinese nationals in the PLA are. Are chinese nationals in California working for Apple the enemy, too? What about chinese nationals in China not in the PLA that just work on the line?

My point via the contrived example is they countries are fictions and so is citizenship and presence in one or “possession” of one is no way a litmus test for “adversary” or even a reasonable proxy.

“China” isn’t a person, and so “China” can’t be an adversary. (Even if it could, that would be dumb, for reasons explained above.)

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook Calling for Bloomberg to Retract Its Chinese Spy Chip Story

#313

Post by brynjolf »

Pharmakon wrote: post #82
appleiigs wrote: post #48

What happens to Tim Cook if Bloomberg is correct?

He utterly loses the confidence of his shareholders and customers, and probably leaves Apple. I don’t know if this story is true or not, but I doubt he’s going to be in a position to be proven outright wrong. I’d he were, I think he’d be keeping shtum.

He lied to congress before about tax. I think he will be fine. He is a seasoned and perpetual liar.

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook Calling for Bloomberg to Retract Its Chinese Spy Chip Story

#314

Post by asdfasgasdgasdg »

panda888888 wrote: post #303
asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean Apple's account seems a lot more believable to me. I know we all want Jason Bourne to be real, but he isn't.

Why trust Apple over Bloomberg? What if the hack were so bad (e.g. a keylogger + who knows what else) that none of the tech giants would ever admit it?

It's not about trust (at least for me). It's about the credibility of the account. "Journalists got something wrong" is a lot easier for me to believe than "there is a massive conspiracy to cover something up and there just so happens to be no evidence of it besides our say so."

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook Calling for Bloomberg to Retract Its Chinese Spy Chip Story

#315

Post by aagha »

Kocrachon wrote: post #161

I doubt anyone will see my comment since I am a few hours late. BUT, I want to say, despite what bloomberg AND apple say, here is why I think Bloomberg failed on this report, and didn't do enough to PROVE their claims were accurate. They made the flat out claim that AWS sold its Chinese infrastructure because of the hack. But this is flat out not true, anyone who actually knows anything about the Chinese goverment kn…

I done think you read the article. It says they sold it via a partnership.

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook Calling for Bloomberg to Retract Its Chinese Spy Chip Story

#316

Post by flycaliguy »

jerf wrote: post #70
aero142 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's all just speculation but this seems like the exact kind of story you would want in order to pass some legislation to prevent foreign manufactured chips being used by USG.

I find that theory very problematic though, because A: it's not terribly necessary B: the government did not particularly jump on this as it would have if this was coordinated propaganda, and let's be honest C: if you want to make that case there's probably 25 equally large, true stories that could be published if the intelligence agencies were willing to burn a few sources or something as they seemed to in this stor…

I like this answer the best but your comment about the government setting up Bloomberg does make me wonder. Bloomberg (the man) may very well be preparing to challenge Trump for the presidency and this could all be the Trump administration playing games.

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook Calling for Bloomberg to Retract Its Chinese Spy Chip Story

#318

Post by ColanR »

kylel wrote: post #199
ColanR wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you remember what those documents were, or how they might be found online? (being curious, not confrontational)

See the wiki page for the FISA court [0] I haven’t read anything that says people/companies must lie, but I have read that they cannot divulge information due to gag orders. (See the court case Microsoft vs US Government [1] ) [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Foreign_Intell... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_v._United_States_(20...

Thanks for the sources. I've definitely seen/know of the gag order business. It was the suggested extension to that I'm curious about ("firms are allowed and even required to lie about things").

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook Calling for Bloomberg to Retract Its Chinese Spy Chip Story

#319

Post by panda888888 »

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #314
panda888888 wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why trust Apple over Bloomberg? What if the hack were so bad (e.g. a keylogger + who knows what else) that none of the tech giants would ever admit it?

It's not about trust (at least for me). It's about the credibility of the account. "Journalists got something wrong" is a lot easier for me to believe than "there is a massive conspiracy to cover something up and there just so happens to be no evidence of it besides our say so."

Hmm. The involvement of Elemental is enough evidence for me. A then 200-person startup with maybe 10 hardware engineers and lots of government clients would be a great target. It makes me thing the hack was real. Why else would Bloomberg have even bothered to report about Elemental?

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook Calling for Bloomberg to Retract Its Chinese Spy Chip Story

#320

Post by stephenr »

panda888888 wrote: post #319
asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about trust (at least for me). It's about the credibility of the account. "Journalists got something wrong" is a lot easier for me to believe than "there is a massive conspiracy to cover something up and there just so happens to be no evidence of it besides our say so."

Hmm. The involvement of Elemental is enough evidence for me. A then 200-person startup with maybe 10 hardware engineers and lots of government clients would be a great target. It makes me thing the hack was real. Why else would Bloomberg have even bothered to report about Elemental?

It's not necessarily all or nothing.

It could be that the actual story is something at some small company, which ballooned into a shit storm of assumptions and embellishment.

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