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Ways people trying to do good accidentally do harm instead and how to avoid them

80000hours.org

101–110 of 149 posts

Re: Ways people trying to do good accidentally do harm instead and how to avoid them

#101

Well I read a bit, then thought "things like being verbose, generic, and over-guarded in offering advice and so wasting lots of readers time without making an impact on their behaviour"? If they'd given one direct piece of easily actionable advice the actual impact might have been far larger ... "So what?" - a Church sermon I heard well over decade ago, the speaker said basically if there's nothing that listeners wil…

I get replies from Enterprise support reps of this sort. They vaguely address my question without commiting to an answer or solution. That way the onus is on me to guess what might work for my case, and meanwhile they can mark the issue resolved.

At least the enterprise support people have a harder time just lying and making up stuff in order to close the ticket, as I have experienced consumer support reps to do.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18072989

Re: Ways people trying to do good accidentally do harm instead and how to avoid them

#102
post #87
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find the claim that the majority are wrong in fields tough to believe. Not impossible, mind. Just tough. I would think it matters on what is "right." Are they wrong in the way that Newton was wrong? Still far more correct that anyone else? (Obviously, not to that degree.)

The majority are not wrong by definition but the fallacy is that you cannot assume that the majority are right. As far as knowledge is concerned, was Newton right for a period until we learned about quantum mechanics or was he always wrong? Was he always right but only within limits that he couldn't know in advance? Apologies for the philosophy but this is the real complexity of an article about avoiding harm by doin…

“He who knows he is a fool is not the biggest fool; he who knows he is confused is not in the worst confusion. The man in the worst confusion will end his life without ever getting straightened out; the biggest fool will end his life without ever seeing the light. If three men are traveling along and one is confused, they will still get where they are going - because confusion is in the minority. But if two of them are confused, then they can walk until they are exhausted and never get anywhere - because confusion is in the majority.” ― Zhuangzi, The Complete Works of Chuang Tzu

Re: Ways people trying to do good accidentally do harm instead and how to avoid them

#103

This is very interesting! But I've seen a lot of push back against this kind of thinking in some political groups. For example saying that you should follow norms of niceness when promoting a cause - people call that tone policing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_policing You could say you should criticise the people who are tone policing rather than the people who are worked up about a cause that personally effec…

>You could say you should criticise

I think the problem begins with the notion of should. And more broadly the notion that people have obligations. On top of that, people use the word should in a lazy manner. They don't want (or are incapable) of having a (significantly) deeper discussion on the issue - it takes a lot of work. To avoid that mental burden, shoulds come out.

Note, I'm not merely referring to your use of the word, but the larger idea that both sides have. Take this:

>but the problem is not the people who try to tone police you, it's the people who don't like your tone and don't criticise you for it - they silently just ignore your cause or vote against it.

As a general rule, when someone who thinks differently from you starts using the language of obligation, it will raise the defenses on the other side. The expected outcome is one of fight (counterargument, or merely raised voices), or flight (the behavior you describe).

There's likely a hidden obligation implicit in your comment. That I am somehow obligated to learn about wrongs being done to others, and obligated to help them (via voting, activism, whatever). And so the tower of obligations gets higher and higher.

In the last two years, I've read 3 books on effective communication, and they all describe this - one goes all the way and suggests you stop using words like should. Others are more nuanced but are saying the same thing: As long as your posture is that of "I know what's right" (which "should" automatically confers) vs "Let's explore and see how I might be wrong", you'll have this problem. (Internally you may be open, but what matters is your showing it - often the outward posture is different from your inner state).

In my experience, and in the experience of the authors, the behavior you describe is what is to be expected. So labeling them as the problem may, on some higher plane, be correct. But if your goal is to actually effect change instead of categorizing, the approach is ineffective.

The books suggest the reader try to be above all of this. They urge the reader to ignore the tone and focus on the message. But they also emphasize that expecting others to reach this level is expecting too much.

BTW, lest I be misunderstood, neither I nor the books are saying there isn't anything like an obligation, and that you should not have shoulds. Of course everyone will have them. The key is to realize that your set of shoulds will be incompatible with others. You could have a long, multi-day conversation with the other to align your sets, but if you just change the style (and tone) of the conversation, you won't need to.

Tone policing is a broad concept. For some who do it, it is very sincere advice. For others, it is a way of not dealing with the issue. Don't fall into the trap of lumping the two crowds in the same boat.

Finally, there's another reason people silently ignore or are turned off from aggressive tones. Many activists have the mentality of "Always find ways not to be ignored" which often translates to "Shout louder and be in their face" (literally have heard some say this). Their whole strategy becomes one of "Escalate till you can't be ignored". This rubs many (most?) people the wrong way. Without even knowing anything about the subject at hand, a lot of people will automatically switch to "Oh yeah! Let me show you how well I can ignore you!"

There's a maxim in the field of negotiations: The more pressure you apply, the stronger the wall the other will build around themselves. This dynamic is entirely independent of the message. Their advice is always what you may not want to hear: Change the posture (including the tone).

Re: Ways people trying to do good accidentally do harm instead and how to avoid them

#104
post #95
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

80,000 hours appeals to a particular type of person, and I think this is good but vague advice for that sort of person. Reputation and social standing matters, you have to network, be humble and learn from people older and wiser than you, don’t try to go it alone, be willing to work on smaller challenges — these are all things I think people in this specific subculture probably would benefit from hearing.

There should be no shame in admitting you made a mistake - I've made several hundred thousand dollars in mistakes - sometimes they turned out to be the same mistake twice - but I owned up to them, and worked harder to make it right. I've been bit often by: Poorly Defined Requirements Incomplete Understanding of the Problem Incomplete Understanding of the Solution Customer Created Access Difficulty Customer created pr…

There's no shame, but it is still a signal.

Similar to the study a while back of whether VCs would rather fund someone who's a "natural" at what they do or someone who's had to work hard to reach that "natural" level. (It's the former.)

Re: Ways people trying to do good accidentally do harm instead and how to avoid them

#105
post #35

I feel weirdly (perhaps irrationally) about the effective altruism people including 80,000 hours. I just can't shake the cult-y vibes they give off. Am I alone in this?

No... I, for one, would really like to know what the actual (measurable, practical) effect of effective altruism is. I definitely hope that it's not just like, we do nothing but more effectively . I likewise question the efficacy of efforts like eradicating malaria. I can't help but feel all that money would be better spent on technology (not startups, but like fusion and other energy research, nanotech, space indust…

EA is, if you read between the lines, a program to maximize deaths from starvation over other causes. Also a form of money laundering, the number of tiers of EA organizations allocating money is always growing. The money goes to employees of charities increasingly.

Re: Ways people trying to do good accidentally do harm instead and how to avoid them

#107
> Everyone understands that one risk of failure is that it tarnishes your reputation. But, unfortunately, people will sometimes decide that your mistakes reflect on your field as a whole. This means that messing up can also set back other people in your field.

I find this to be the case with non-profits and others attempting to make big pushes to promote local entrepreneurship. I have objected to several attempts based on the organizers focusing on the wants of donors (not the entrepreneurs), lacking any marketing plan beyond "if you build it they will come" and not having long-term plans for sustainability. Every failed attempt sets back the next one by 2-3 years but no one wants to listen to a naysayer.

Re: Ways people trying to do good accidentally do harm instead and how to avoid them

#108
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find the claim that the majority are wrong in fields tough to believe. Not impossible, mind. Just tough. I would think it matters on what is "right." Are they wrong in the way that Newton was wrong? Still far more correct that anyone else? (Obviously, not to that degree.)

Take, for example, an electronics or hardware project. The majority is a bunch of experienced engineers who will tell you that your project will take years based on their own experience with an earlier project. What they neglect to account for is that their earlier project took years because of the state of the art at the time. They're taking experience that applies to the era of NAND flash and board bring-up and app…

There is also a bit on the what question are people answering, aspect. How long will it take to take pretty much any electronic product to production? Quite a while. How long would it take you to build a prototype that you can play with? Probably not long at all.

Re: Ways people trying to do good accidentally do harm instead and how to avoid them

#109
One that has gotten me and some of my cohort is the idea that if you have a below average income you have to live in an ugly run down neighborhood.

But a few too many beautification projects and property taxes start to go up. Now you’re pricing people out of their neighborhood. With renters they don’t even get the benefit of selling their house.

Most of the solutions I can think of could be easily gamed by speculators, which makes me wonder if the others just have a flaw I don’t see.

Re: Ways people trying to do good accidentally do harm instead and how to avoid them

#110
post #87
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find the claim that the majority are wrong in fields tough to believe. Not impossible, mind. Just tough. I would think it matters on what is "right." Are they wrong in the way that Newton was wrong? Still far more correct that anyone else? (Obviously, not to that degree.)

The majority are not wrong by definition but the fallacy is that you cannot assume that the majority are right. As far as knowledge is concerned, was Newton right for a period until we learned about quantum mechanics or was he always wrong? Was he always right but only within limits that he couldn't know in advance? Apologies for the philosophy but this is the real complexity of an article about avoiding harm by doin…

I don't know if I would agree that the majority can't be wrong by definition. I just find it an odd and strong claim. I suspect I misunderstand the point.

What is the claim "the majority are wrong/don't have the solution" meant to support? If I just emphasized on the "wrong" instead of "don't have the solution", apologies.

For Newton, he was always wrong based on his equations abilities to predict everything. He was just closer than many before that point such that it was undetectable for a long time.

Which is my point in asking. If folks are correct in their predictive and application based metrics, it is somewhat silly to belabor them being "wrong" in some absolute sense.

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