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Ways people trying to do good accidentally do harm instead and how to avoid them

80000hours.org

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Re: Ways people trying to do good accidentally do harm instead and how to avoid them

#91

Post by Varcht »

lbriner wrote: post #71

The bit I struggled with is that in many fields, either the majority are wrong/don't have the solution (Argumentum ad populum) or otherwise listening to expertise/experience can either give you too much input or, again, implies that there is more chance that experience will give you a better solution to a problem. In their example, if Dr. Ignaz Semmelweis had asked his more experienced peers about approaching the pro…

This is the best argument I have heard for absolute freedom of speech and rugged individualism I have heard in a while. Thank you!

Re: Ways people trying to do good accidentally do harm instead and how to avoid them

#92

Post by bluntfang »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #39

Well I read a bit, then thought "things like being verbose, generic, and over-guarded in offering advice and so wasting lots of readers time without making an impact on their behaviour"? If they'd given one direct piece of easily actionable advice the actual impact might have been far larger ... "So what?" - a Church sermon I heard well over decade ago, the speaker said basically if there's nothing that listeners wil…

Are you advocating for a listicle?

Re: Ways people trying to do good accidentally do harm instead and how to avoid them

#93

Post by Retric »

jschwartzi wrote: post #90
taeric wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find the claim that the majority are wrong in fields tough to believe. Not impossible, mind. Just tough. I would think it matters on what is "right." Are they wrong in the way that Newton was wrong? Still far more correct that anyone else? (Obviously, not to that degree.)

Take, for example, an electronics or hardware project. The majority is a bunch of experienced engineers who will tell you that your project will take years based on their own experience with an earlier project. What they neglect to account for is that their earlier project took years because of the state of the art at the time. They're taking experience that applies to the era of NAND flash and board bring-up and app…

The hardest part of talking with experts is to make sure they answer the same question as you want answered.

"How quickly can we get something that more or less works for a demo?" is very different from "When will this be ready for mass production?" They can't read your mind and often to consider context you are not even aware of.

Re: Ways people trying to do good accidentally do harm instead and how to avoid them

#94

Post by mattjaynes »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #39

Well I read a bit, then thought "things like being verbose, generic, and over-guarded in offering advice and so wasting lots of readers time without making an impact on their behaviour"? If they'd given one direct piece of easily actionable advice the actual impact might have been far larger ... "So what?" - a Church sermon I heard well over decade ago, the speaker said basically if there's nothing that listeners wil…

Totally agree on the case for focus and efficiency.

I'd also add that much of what we hear or read has slight effects on us that can be profound over time.

In the case of books, nearly every book I read changes my outlook and direction, sometimes imperceptibly, but I believe the effects can be large over time.

Of course, quality matters - "you are what you eat" or in this case what you read.

Reminds me of a quote by Charles de Gaulle:

"Don't ask me who's influenced me. A lion is made up of the lambs he's digested, and I've been reading all my life."

Re: Ways people trying to do good accidentally do harm instead and how to avoid them

#95

Post by Aloha »

currymj wrote: post #86
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #39

Well I read a bit, then thought "things like being verbose, generic, and over-guarded in offering advice and so wasting lots of readers time without making an impact on their behaviour"? If they'd given one direct piece of easily actionable advice the actual impact might have been far larger ... "So what?" - a Church sermon I heard well over decade ago, the speaker said basically if there's nothing that listeners wil…

80,000 hours appeals to a particular type of person, and I think this is good but vague advice for that sort of person. Reputation and social standing matters, you have to network, be humble and learn from people older and wiser than you, don’t try to go it alone, be willing to work on smaller challenges — these are all things I think people in this specific subculture probably would benefit from hearing.

There should be no shame in admitting you made a mistake - I've made several hundred thousand dollars in mistakes - sometimes they turned out to be the same mistake twice - but I owned up to them, and worked harder to make it right.

I've been bit often by:

Poorly Defined Requirements

Incomplete Understanding of the Problem

Incomplete Understanding of the Solution

Customer Created Access Difficulty

Customer created process issues

Poor documentation or data inputs

Excessive Complexity Customization driven by customer needs

I'm getting better with time, and I'm better at determining what the actual requirements are, and I now more fully understand what my solution is capable of too.

Re: Ways people trying to do good accidentally do harm instead and how to avoid them

#97

Post by DelightOne »

lbriner wrote: post #71

The bit I struggled with is that in many fields, either the majority are wrong/don't have the solution (Argumentum ad populum) or otherwise listening to expertise/experience can either give you too much input or, again, implies that there is more chance that experience will give you a better solution to a problem. In their example, if Dr. Ignaz Semmelweis had asked his more experienced peers about approaching the pro…

> The really difficult part of any venture is knowing how to distinguish wise advice from just another opinion.

The usual advice is to choose a trusted advisor with lots of experience in the field, listen to and follow his advice and see if it works. If it doesn’t, adapt.

Every other way is wallowing in indecision, losing time. A decision won’t get better with ten opinions of which more than half are unfounded or even incorrect to begin with.

Re: Ways people trying to do good accidentally do harm instead and how to avoid them

#98

Post by BeetleB »

fiblye wrote: post #40
YorkshireSeason wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many pro-choice people do you think are persuaded by Symmetrically, how many pro-life people do you think are persuaded by the people screaming "woman-hater/sexist/misogynist" outside of Planned Parenthood? If you can't explain your argument in a calm, rational manner, You overestimate the efficacy of explaining in a calm, rational manner. As a university teacher with > 10 years experience, I can tell you with ex…

Screaming is useful for warning something about something that's obviously going to negatively affect them. Like walking in in front of a train, or how cheating will make them fail a course because the screaming person will be the one failing them. When it comes to more abstract concepts, the average person will ignore the screaming lunatics and side with the person that appears sane at first glance, even if they're…

>Like walking in in front of a train

Agreed.

>or how cheating will make them fail a course because the screaming person will be the one failing them.

Completely disagree. In my life, there have been plenty of people for whom this is not effective. Screaming is good for urgent events that will have immediate and serious consequences. Failing a course is a long term consequence.

Also, beyond a certain frequency, screaming loses effect. I once transferred to a school that had lots of screaming and heavy corporal punishment. It was very clear: The screaming and punishment had virtually no effect on the students. It would reduce them to tears, and once the tears were gone, the behavior continued. In my prior school the frequency of such disciplinary measures was much lower, and almost always was more effective because it was rare.

So activists who are always screaming are destined to being ignored (this being only one of the reasons).

Re: Ways people trying to do good accidentally do harm instead and how to avoid them

#99

Post by module0000 »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #39

Well I read a bit, then thought "things like being verbose, generic, and over-guarded in offering advice and so wasting lots of readers time without making an impact on their behaviour"? If they'd given one direct piece of easily actionable advice the actual impact might have been far larger ... "So what?" - a Church sermon I heard well over decade ago, the speaker said basically if there's nothing that listeners wil…

I was hoping we'd get a list of times people tried to help, and actually hurt etc. Felt the same way you describe after reading the article.

Re: Ways people trying to do good accidentally do harm instead and how to avoid them

#100

Post by mbesto »

hueving wrote: post #10
chrisseaton wrote: post #8

This is very interesting! But I've seen a lot of push back against this kind of thinking in some political groups. For example saying that you should follow norms of niceness when promoting a cause - people call that tone policing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_policing You could say you should criticise the people who are tone policing rather than the people who are worked up about a cause that personally effec…

People who criticize tone police are technically right that the content of an argument is what should matter, but that smacks of ignorance of how humans engage in conversation. If someone is screaming at me and ending every sentence with, "you fucking moron!", there is approximately a 0% chance I'm going to take them seriously and I'm going to assume emotional outbursts will be sent in return to any responses I care…

Or more succinctly put - context matters.
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