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Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

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Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#201

Post by astrodust »

dragonwriter wrote: post #155
astrodust wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did it come with a mentor to help you understand all of that highly technical material? Did you know anyone else that had a similar computer who was doing similar things with it?

> Did it come with a mentor to help you understand all of that highly technical material? It mostly was written for an audience of non-technical users, since there weren't enough technical users to make a mass market. The only mentor I had early on was my father (who had work done his way up from sales into an branch operations manager position for a farm machinery firm), who was learning alongside me. > Did you know…

Lucky you.

Here the school districts were partitioned along different brands of computer. One would have Amiga, one Macintosh, the others a mix of C64/PET.

Mine had, for reasons nobody could ever explain, settled on the Unisys ICON system: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unisys_ICON

Nobody knew how it worked, and all you could do with them was look up books in the library or run some terrible typing tutor program.

Everyone's personal computer, which was extremely rare to have, would be some random thing. C64 for one person, Sinclair for another. At first I borrowed a neighbour's TI 99/4A. Later a loaner C64 which was better because you could at least copy games for it.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#202

Post by astrodust »

yuhong wrote: post #164
astrodust wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, no. It's an interesting art project, but it's completely ill-suited to be a learning tool.

I wonder if HolyC has been ported to other platforms.

Please don't.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#203

Post by emmanueloga_ »

potta_coffee wrote: post #3

The closest thing I've found to this is Pico-8: not a computer, a piece of software, but it's very cool. It has a simple text editor for writing Lua code, a simple sprite editor, and a simple sound editor, all for creating games. It's a nice little sandbox for playing with code and creating things. https://www.lexaloffle.com/pico-8.php

There are a bunch of these "fantasy consoles" now. From a quick search:

* Pico-8: https://www.lexaloffle.com/pico-8.php

* Liko-12: https://liko-12.github.io/

* Tic-80: https://tic.computer/

* Pixel Vision 8: https://www.pixelvision8.com/

I have no idea how they compare to each other.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#204

Post by WillPostForFood »

makmanalp wrote: post #56
potta_coffee wrote: post #3

The closest thing I've found to this is Pico-8: not a computer, a piece of software, but it's very cool. It has a simple text editor for writing Lua code, a simple sprite editor, and a simple sound editor, all for creating games. It's a nice little sandbox for playing with code and creating things. https://www.lexaloffle.com/pico-8.php

I think Pico-8 would be perfect if: a) The code editing story was a bit nicer (better resolution / builtin support for external editing and reloading etc) b) If there was some kid-specific introductory game programming content for it (even "type all this in and play around with it after" worked for me as a kid)

You should check out the Pico-8 fanzine. It is super cute, has coding tutorials and game building walkthroughs. I think there are now 8 issues.

https://sectordub.itch.io/pico-8-fanzine-1

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#205

Post by thaumasiotes »

JacobJans wrote: post #178

This post reminds me of a running line of thought that's been going on in my head for quite some time: "Single Purpose Devices." The main disadvantage of most computing devices is that they offer too many options; making them mentally unwieldy. A "single purpose device" is created to support just one purpose. The Kindle is perhaps the most famous example; it practically created an industry. Sure, it can do more than…

Something seems off about learning general-purpose programming on a single-purpose device. How would you run your programs?

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#206

Post by WillPostForFood »

joeberon wrote: post #62
veli_joza wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm surprised you feel that way. Lua seems like a perfect choice for pico-8. Its syntax is friendly and concise, and it's maybe simplest language to embed, with tiny footprint. Almost all other languages I know of would be a worse choice. Scratch would be nice, but graphical editor is harder to integrate. What's more suitable language in your opinion?

Well it's only because of the issue with the built-in editor, since lua isn't really that concise in terms of character count imo. Also the official tutorial is a published book which I find a little distasteful although understandable. You are right though I can't really think of a better language to use

You can attach an external editor if you want, though I think it is not needed for learning. There is more value in the tight integration than the conveniences of a great text editor.

I've used this Sublime Text Package which works well:

https://packagecontrol.io/packages/PICO-8

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#207

Post by lupire »

lostgame wrote: post #21
gowld wrote: post #19

What's the point? "Power on to BASIC" is running an app on an old small OS. What's wrong with running any programming environment app fullscreen on a modern computer?

It introduces a vastly larger number of elements to a new mind much more quickly. Comparing opening Windows 10 and VS and starting a new project to turning on a computer and being presented an in-line-text IDE is to introduce degrees of complexity greater than is needed to understand or teach the fundamental concept (programming).

An interactive BASIC interpreter (or something saner, like Python) can run on a modern computer. It doesn't have to be a VS project. Anyone ready to learn to program can handle the complexity of tapping on an icon to launch an app.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#208

Post by emmanueloga_ »

emmanueloga_ wrote: post #203
potta_coffee wrote: post #3

The closest thing I've found to this is Pico-8: not a computer, a piece of software, but it's very cool. It has a simple text editor for writing Lua code, a simple sprite editor, and a simple sound editor, all for creating games. It's a nice little sandbox for playing with code and creating things. https://www.lexaloffle.com/pico-8.php

There are a bunch of these "fantasy consoles" now. From a quick search: * Pico-8: https://www.lexaloffle.com/pico-8.php * Liko-12: https://liko-12.github.io/ * Tic-80: https://tic.computer/ * Pixel Vision 8: https://www.pixelvision8.com/ I have no idea how they compare to each other.

Oh damn, such a rabbit hole :-p. Also found this list [1].

A couple on the list run BASIC! E.g. [2].

I just learned there's this thing "Windows 10 IoT", [3] a Win10 version for low power devices like the raspberri pi.

Would be interesting to try to run B8 in there!

1: https://github.com/paladin-t/fantasy

2: https://store.steampowered.com/app/767240/BASIC8/

3: https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/iot/Downloads

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#209

Post by lupire »

ziaddotcom wrote: post #85
gowld wrote: post #19

What's the point? "Power on to BASIC" is running an app on an old small OS. What's wrong with running any programming environment app fullscreen on a modern computer?

Nothing wrong with it. However, I think an 8 year old seeing a 30 year old computer turn on instantly to the same thing a supposed "better computer" takes 10 minutes to boot to might surprise and teach them something. I think your question, although sincere, is a variation of "why not give a child a 4 wheel drive suv instead of a silly old go cart?"

It's more like "Why not let the child put stuff on the bottom shelf of the fridge instead of buying them their own kid-fridge?"

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#210

Post by AnimalMuppet »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #205
JacobJans wrote: post #178

This post reminds me of a running line of thought that's been going on in my head for quite some time: "Single Purpose Devices." The main disadvantage of most computing devices is that they offer too many options; making them mentally unwieldy. A "single purpose device" is created to support just one purpose. The Kindle is perhaps the most famous example; it practically created an industry. Sure, it can do more than…

Something seems off about learning general-purpose programming on a single-purpose device. How would you run your programs?

Pretty clearly it has to have a way to run the programs you enter as you're learning to program. Otherwise it's a lousy device at teaching programming.

Or have I missed your point?

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