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You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

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Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#241

Post by justin66 »

gamblor956 wrote: post #220
DtnB wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the parent but: I would imply exactly such a thing. Just like how, in some/most states you are supposed to pay a tipped employee minimum wage if they don't make the equivalent in tips. As far as I can tell from having worked in food service: that payout never happens.

What you've described is a state crime, a federal crime, and a violation of several different state and federal labor laws. Easily a dime worth of prison time, plus criminal fines, plus civil penalties, plus having to pay out the stolen tips to your employees with treble damages for the intentional tort you've comitted. Not really worth it. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but the calculus is so bad that it's extrem…

It happens all the time. Connie Schultz won a Pulitzer for writing about this, among other things: https://www.pulitzer.org/winners/connie-schultz

I can understand why you might think it never happens if you are completely ignorant of the facts on the ground but nevertheless familiar with the criminal and civil sanctions involved. It's about lack of enforcement.

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#243

Post by SilasX »

tptacek wrote: post #231
SilasX wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that's a relevant point to make in the context of this article, because there's widespread disagreement (leaning toward "no") on whether tipping for that muffin is required in the sense that a tip for dining-with-table-service is. A guaranteed 20% for a coffee shop muffin at the counter is definitely not expected. Or were you just intending a pre-emptive general critique of the three people who might use…

You can be the person who doesn't tip the counter-service worker if you like. The iPad didn't create that tipping expectation; before there were iPads, there were glass jars full of cash. People probably won't judge you for not tipping at a coffee shop. Like I said, I find it's easier to go through life just tipping wherever it's asked, and not worrying whether I'm being an asshole to service workers. I'm not saying…

If you're ever wondering what a good use for the term "virtue signaling" is, this comment would be it: advocacy of something impractical for the typical person but which makes you look good.

"Just give money in every transaction that labels it a tip at PoS. What's the problem? Why do you have to think about whether the demand is merited? I can afford it, and I find it worthwhile to know I didn't break any rules."

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#244

Post by Jach »

pbiggar wrote: post #80
jjuhl wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's simply not my problem. Why should I care? If they are unhappy with their wages they should complain to their employer. It's not my job to fix their wages.

> "That's simply not my problem" That's an unfortunate attitude. I thought a lot like you, but when I realized the wage disparity here - I could afford to go eat at these fancy places, which my servers definitely could not - I chose to make it my problem. Other people's problems are not yours, but if you can choose to help (for example, if you can afford to help), you should.

That's not a very robust moral imperative and hinges on what you mean by "afford". It also ignores the case that some people don't want your help because it would cheapen the feeling of overcoming their problems on their own.

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#245

Post by scroot »

mikestew wrote: post #73
blacksmith_tb wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ouch, having worked in cafes and restaurants as an undergrad I pretty much always tip 20%. Is it absurd? Of course, but given how badly most waitstaff are paid, the idea that you will somehow eliminate the practice by stiffing a few barristas seems both sadistic and highly unlikely to change the world. Until robots hand me muffins, I accept it as a tax on eating out.

stiffing a few barristas I'm old enough to remember a time that giving extra money to someone for handing you a cup of coffee would be thought absurd. Sit down eatery? No problem, there's prior art before I was born, disagree though I might. But this recent bullshit of "tip, because my employer doesn't pay me enough", whether its Starbucks, McDonalds, or your fave local coffee shop: yeah, fuck that. McDonalds doesn't…

> McDonalds doesn't need my subsidy.

No, but the person to makes and hands over your coffee does.

> I'm old enough to remember a time that giving extra money to someone for handing you a cup of coffee would be thought absurd.

Then you're probably also old enough to remember when wage increases tracked with productivity increases, or when minimum wage kept up with inflation and the cost of living.

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#246

Post by tptacek »

miketery wrote: post #235
tptacek wrote: post #209

Hacker News threads about tipping are always rough. US tipping is not complicated. You are being asked to share with a service worker's employer some of the burden of compensating them. The notion that you're rewarding exceptional service is a polite fiction. Depending on where you are, the tip is either expected or it isn't. Unfortunately for the mindset of a typical software developer, there won't be much clarity o…

I've been struggling with this for a while and you put it really well. However it frustrates me to no end, that customers are expected to do compensation sharing with the employer. The nefarious thing about this is that the employer has put the negotiating for fair wages between the customer and employees instead of between the employees and the employer. End of the day its manageable as you say, just price in the ti…

Another way to look at it is that tipping lubricates the market pricing interface between customers and vendors. If they didn't allow tipping, restaurants would charge more to make up the difference (margins in service work are almost always very low). In a tipping system, when things are going well, everyone tips; if things aren't going so well, not so much. There's some wiggle room between the list price and the actual price, which might offset price stickiness.

Either way, tipping is not an elaborate conspiracy. It might have been long ago, but today, it's just the way service work in the US is organized. If you want to crusade against the injustice of it, that's fine! But make sure your crusade is orthogonal to whether or not you actually tip. :)

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#247

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

tptacek wrote: post #209

Hacker News threads about tipping are always rough. US tipping is not complicated. You are being asked to share with a service worker's employer some of the burden of compensating them. The notion that you're rewarding exceptional service is a polite fiction. Depending on where you are, the tip is either expected or it isn't. Unfortunately for the mindset of a typical software developer, there won't be much clarity o…

> US tipping is not complicated.

I'd actually say it wasn't complicated, until technology like this made the experience awful. Before this tech existed, I don't ever recall being verbally asked for a tip, and if I had I would have thought it to be the height of rudeness. I certainly don't ever recall being asked for a tip while the machine then broadcasts your tipped amount to everyone else in line behind you.

I get your overall point that tipping is a way to make extremely low-wage jobs slightly more bearable, but I'm fine with people pointing out how this technology is ridiculous and not a good thing.

Don't even get me started on the fact that the purpose of tipping is to reward service after you have received it.

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#248

Post by ghaff »

thaumaturgy wrote: post #211
blacksmith_tb wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ouch, having worked in cafes and restaurants as an undergrad I pretty much always tip 20%. Is it absurd? Of course, but given how badly most waitstaff are paid, the idea that you will somehow eliminate the practice by stiffing a few barristas seems both sadistic and highly unlikely to change the world. Until robots hand me muffins, I accept it as a tax on eating out.

> I accept it as a tax on eating out. I'm highlighting this part because it's one of the main contributing factors to dining out less and less, for me, and that includes coffee shops. I always tip well when going out; ergo, I don't go out as often. Going off of the "I'm not very unique" rule of thumb, businesses are losing some amount of money because of tipping culture.

>businesses are losing some amount of money because of tipping culture

Only in the most trivial sense that people know that, between sales tax and tipping, they're going to be paying a price that's 25-30% more than what's printed on the menu. And most people have some degree of price elasticity.

But I honestly can't imagine it matters much whether those adders are folded into the price up-front or you just know that you're going to be paying more than the printed price when you get the bill.

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#249

Post by onetimemanytime »

miketery wrote: post #235
tptacek wrote: post #209

Hacker News threads about tipping are always rough. US tipping is not complicated. You are being asked to share with a service worker's employer some of the burden of compensating them. The notion that you're rewarding exceptional service is a polite fiction. Depending on where you are, the tip is either expected or it isn't. Unfortunately for the mindset of a typical software developer, there won't be much clarity o…

I've been struggling with this for a while and you put it really well. However it frustrates me to no end, that customers are expected to do compensation sharing with the employer. The nefarious thing about this is that the employer has put the negotiating for fair wages between the customer and employees instead of between the employees and the employer. End of the day its manageable as you say, just price in the ti…

>>However it frustrates me to no end, that customers are expected to do compensation sharing with the employer

A debate, perhaps worth having. Meanwhile your server makes less than minimum wage because tips are expected to fill in the gap. A while back it was $2.13 an hour. Not giving him a tip is only going to ruin his day, not start a revolution. As of right now, the chicken dish cost $16 plus an unofficial but expected 15-20% tip. Do you have the roughly $20? if not, grab a few slices of pizza.

Edit: I don't tip 20% when I grab a coffee at Dunkin. Oh no. Maybe leave them the loose change.

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#250

Post by mtberatwork »

tptacek wrote: post #209

Hacker News threads about tipping are always rough. US tipping is not complicated. You are being asked to share with a service worker's employer some of the burden of compensating them. The notion that you're rewarding exceptional service is a polite fiction. Depending on where you are, the tip is either expected or it isn't. Unfortunately for the mindset of a typical software developer, there won't be much clarity o…

> A very easy, relatively pleasant way to get through life in the US if you're well-off enough that you routinely buy coffee in expensive coffee shops: just always tip. Anywhere there's a tip line. You never have to figure anything out, and sometimes people really appreciate it.

Well, unless you are the next person in line who hadn't planned on leaving a tip and now feels guilty/obligated because the person in front of them put down a large tip right in front of the cashier.

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