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Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

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Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#151

Post by nicole_express »

I'm curious why the 8-bit machines themselves aren't an option here; I'd recommend the Commodore 128, as it was the newest of the Commodore machines and had their most advanced BASIC (so you can actually do graphics stuff without directly manipulating memory) Finding a working one might be a bit more pricy these days than a Raspberry Pi, though.

Otherwise, I'd say the web is probably the closest thing; once you help them over the initial hurdles of setting up a basic site with a simple JS program that they can mess with, it's possible to do quite a lot, in an environment most kids are going to be familiar with; configure a simple Linux environment to open a web browser and a text editor on boot and there you go.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#152

Post by ComputerGuru »

mixmastamyk wrote: post #92
simion314 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>why not use pi + python? Do you have experience with teaching python to kids? I am afraid to try it with my son because white space is important, I tried only Scratch and making him think as "a machine" is hard enough adding syntax errors on top would make the job much harder, let me know if you have experience with this and if you think I am wrong.

Only the leading space is important and editors take care of it when you hit the tab key.

Or just use a language that doesn’t have that problem, then you don’t need a magic editor.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#153

Post by dvfjsdhgfv »

astrodust wrote: post #136
itomato wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going back to a world where free and open software was the norm would be a mistake? Being able to buy one of a half-dozen or more periodicals with informative commentary on an accessible programming language would be a mistake? Empowering a generation of STEM learners with a basic programming language centered around the bedrock of computer science would be a mistake? Safely and easily gaining first-hand experience w…

If you think BASIC was free and open have I got a letter from Bill Gates to show you. GCC is free and open. Clang is free and open. BASIC is commercial, proprietary, closed-source software. The "bedrock of computer science" is machine code, or if you're not a fan of reading and writing hex values or flipping physical switches on your Altair, then assembly. Everything after that is an abstraction.

There are free and open BASIC interpreters and even compilers.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#154

Post by ComputerGuru »

shaunxcode wrote: post #127
philipswood wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kids today have it difficult! A real computer, by definition is something you can program. Today you don't just find accessible devices meeting that requirement in the wild. In the microcomputer era you pressed the power button and you had a REPL prompt. Today there _is_ a computer hidden somewhere inside you laptop or mobile device, but you need to know where to dig to find it. In the 80s a newly hatched geek just h…

I think you are selling kids/newly hatched geeks short. They have also been raised on google and youtube - both places they can find out how to do nearly anything related to programming and game dev. I would have done anything to get access to that info when I was 11 and trying to figure out how to make sega genesis games!

Information overload. Sure, those gems are there. But they are buried under a proverbial mountain of crap.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#155

Post by dragonwriter »

astrodust wrote: post #138
dragonwriter wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the old days you saved up an extraordinary amount of money, bought a Commodore 64, plugged it in, and then had absolutely no idea what to do unless you had books. While I never got a C64, I did get a Timex-Sinclair 1000, a Timex-Sinclair 2068, and a PC clone in the early-to-mid 1980s, and all of them came with complete BASIC manuals as well as other system documentation.

Did it come with a mentor to help you understand all of that highly technical material? Did you know anyone else that had a similar computer who was doing similar things with it?

> Did it come with a mentor to help you understand all of that highly technical material?

It mostly was written for an audience of non-technical users, since there weren't enough technical users to make a mass market.

The only mentor I had early on was my father (who had work done his way up from sales into an branch operations manager position for a farm machinery firm), who was learning alongside me.

> Did you know anyone else that had a similar computer who was doing similar things with it?

Yes, quite a few my age in elementary school did.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#156

Post by bdamm »

astrodust wrote: post #146
dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You both have a point. When I showed a text-mode adventure to a kid, their reaction was "Really? Why would anyone play such a thing these days?" On the other hand, getting started with toy twoliners involving a question and a simple arithmetic answer can spark some interest. The effect is augmented if what you type can have an immediate effect on hardware like in the case of Duinomite where the inerpreter is running…

If you want to get kids engaged, Minecraft is the best learning environment out there. You can get a computer that runs Lua in the game, and that thing can interact with devices and the environment. You can write a couple of lines of code that spawns pigs. From there anything's possible. Subjecting someone to the ridiculously spartan environment that is the READY prompt is the polar opposite of encouraging.

Interesting... I had no idea Lua was in Minecraft.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#157

Post by itomato »

astrodust wrote: post #136
itomato wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going back to a world where free and open software was the norm would be a mistake? Being able to buy one of a half-dozen or more periodicals with informative commentary on an accessible programming language would be a mistake? Empowering a generation of STEM learners with a basic programming language centered around the bedrock of computer science would be a mistake? Safely and easily gaining first-hand experience w…

If you think BASIC was free and open have I got a letter from Bill Gates to show you. GCC is free and open. Clang is free and open. BASIC is commercial, proprietary, closed-source software. The "bedrock of computer science" is machine code, or if you're not a fan of reading and writing hex values or flipping physical switches on your Altair, then assembly. Everything after that is an abstraction.

Gates' copyrights on implementations of BASIC don't interest me. Blackjack, bubble sort and tower of hanoi in human-readable BASIC do.

C isn't suitable for most K-8 students. Explain malloc while I handle PRINT, INPUT, PEEK and POKE. We'll meet at memory registers and see whose student feels more confident.

You've created a layer cake of abstractions with your OS, advanced filesystem and C compiler (plus libraries). I presume a mouse and metaphorical desktop "icing" are included.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#158

Post by amasad »

When we're building Repl.it we think about this a lot and we think we're building "power on to basic" for the cloud era.

Where the microcomputer in the mainframe era made computing more accessible, we think Repl.it is the microcomputer to the mainframe's cloud.

In fact most of our users that use it as a platform, and not just a repl, are kids.

Check out our hackernews-like forum where mostly teenager are sharing what they're building: https://repl.it/talk?order=votes

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#159

Post by amasad »

linsomniac wrote: post #60
kipchak wrote: post #28

The Kano kits come to mind in spirit, Though it's more of a guided cushier approach than just getting into basic. The basic idea is a Pi and it's accessories that you "build yourself" and then some optional add ons like a light grid display. I think the actual coding Python and Javascript with a block formatting kind of like lego Mindstorms. Come to think of it you can use Small Basic on Mindstorms which might be int…

I really like the Kano, but my son was able to figure out how to get into youtube with it and it's become a "all youtube all the time" environment. Been using repl.it and the "Python with Turtle" flavor this week and he's been having fun with it.

That's awesome. Repl.it ceo here. Check out our forum, there's lots of material shared by kids like your son. Here is one tutorial on pixel art with Turtle https://repl.it/talk/challenge/How-to-draw-Pixel-Art-on-Pyth...

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#160

Post by jimbokun »

bdamm wrote: post #131
astrodust wrote: post #124

In the old days you saved up an extraordinary amount of money, bought a Commodore 64, plugged it in, and then had absolutely no idea what to do unless you had books. So you went and got books or magazines, some maybe from the library, some from bookstores, and many of them might be for systems other than the C64. It wasn't uncommon for a magazine to have to cater to a dozen slightly different versions of BASIC: Apple…

That's silly. Javascript requires all kinds of knowledge to get started; what does this code mean, how do you hook it into a page, what is DOM, etc. That's a lot to ask of a 10-yr old. Meanwhile, any 10-yr old can understand this code: 10 PRINT "Hey there Joe" 20 GOTO 10 Boom. Functional program. Instant gratification. That will be the last program this person ever writes that provides such instant reward, but neverm…

Show them how to access the Console in Chrome.

    alert("Hello World!")
(Infinite looping it could be annoying, though. Would you have to quit Chrome to make it stop?)

I think the browser console for evaluating Javascript is under rated for a quick and dirty introduction to program with an immediate payoff.

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