Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

news.ycombinator.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

131–140 of 340 posts

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#131

Post by bdamm »

astrodust wrote: post #124

In the old days you saved up an extraordinary amount of money, bought a Commodore 64, plugged it in, and then had absolutely no idea what to do unless you had books. So you went and got books or magazines, some maybe from the library, some from bookstores, and many of them might be for systems other than the C64. It wasn't uncommon for a magazine to have to cater to a dozen slightly different versions of BASIC: Apple…

That's silly. Javascript requires all kinds of knowledge to get started; what does this code mean, how do you hook it into a page, what is DOM, etc. That's a lot to ask of a 10-yr old.

Meanwhile, any 10-yr old can understand this code:

  10 PRINT "Hey there Joe"
  20 GOTO 10
Boom. Functional program. Instant gratification. That will be the last program this person ever writes that provides such instant reward, but nevermind, that foundational idea that the computer can bend to your will is planted.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#132

Post by khazhou »

astrodust wrote: post #124

In the old days you saved up an extraordinary amount of money, bought a Commodore 64, plugged it in, and then had absolutely no idea what to do unless you had books. So you went and got books or magazines, some maybe from the library, some from bookstores, and many of them might be for systems other than the C64. It wasn't uncommon for a magazine to have to cater to a dozen slightly different versions of BASIC: Apple…

Sorry but none of that has anything to do with OPs request, except for where you say BASIC is terrible.

- Lack of resources (books, mags, etc) -- no longer a problem

- Platform differences and PEEK/POKE -- also not relevant. The Basic OP asks for would presumably have the necessary graphics/audio functions

- Typing is frustrating -- also solvable easily. Just because a system drops you into Basic (aka a shell) doesn't mean you can't have a decent editor.

I very much second OP's request. I'd love a laptop or fullscreen app for my young kids that is just an editor and interpreter.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#133

Post by yters »

astrodust wrote: post #124

In the old days you saved up an extraordinary amount of money, bought a Commodore 64, plugged it in, and then had absolutely no idea what to do unless you had books. So you went and got books or magazines, some maybe from the library, some from bookstores, and many of them might be for systems other than the C64. It wasn't uncommon for a magazine to have to cater to a dozen slightly different versions of BASIC: Apple…

I got into programming to make games, and the platform agnostic BASIC listings were enough for me. The fanciest device usage I did was drawing pictures and making the computer buzzer play tunes.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#134

Post by itomato »

astrodust wrote: post #124

In the old days you saved up an extraordinary amount of money, bought a Commodore 64, plugged it in, and then had absolutely no idea what to do unless you had books. So you went and got books or magazines, some maybe from the library, some from bookstores, and many of them might be for systems other than the C64. It wasn't uncommon for a magazine to have to cater to a dozen slightly different versions of BASIC: Apple…

Going back to a world where free and open software was the norm would be a mistake?

Being able to buy one of a half-dozen or more periodicals with informative commentary on an accessible programming language would be a mistake?

Empowering a generation of STEM learners with a basic programming language centered around the bedrock of computer science would be a mistake?

Safely and easily gaining first-hand experience with low-level hardware engineering principles would be a mistake?

Not PEEKing and POKEing in Primary school is a mistake.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#135

Post by astrodust »

bdamm wrote: post #131
astrodust wrote: post #124

In the old days you saved up an extraordinary amount of money, bought a Commodore 64, plugged it in, and then had absolutely no idea what to do unless you had books. So you went and got books or magazines, some maybe from the library, some from bookstores, and many of them might be for systems other than the C64. It wasn't uncommon for a magazine to have to cater to a dozen slightly different versions of BASIC: Apple…

That's silly. Javascript requires all kinds of knowledge to get started; what does this code mean, how do you hook it into a page, what is DOM, etc. That's a lot to ask of a 10-yr old. Meanwhile, any 10-yr old can understand this code: 10 PRINT "Hey there Joe" 20 GOTO 10 Boom. Functional program. Instant gratification. That will be the last program this person ever writes that provides such instant reward, but neverm…

I can teach someone how to make a button blink in JavaScript in ten minutes. I don't have to explain what line numbers are. I only have to teach some very rudimentary HTML.

From there they can absorb more knowledge and do really cool things.

That BASIC program is garbage and nobody cares. Seeing your name on a screen doesn't carry the same thrill it did in 1985.

Show someone PONG today and they will wonder if you're playing a joke on them. Show someone PONG IN 1972 and you'd blow their mind.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#136

Post by astrodust »

itomato wrote: post #134
astrodust wrote: post #124

In the old days you saved up an extraordinary amount of money, bought a Commodore 64, plugged it in, and then had absolutely no idea what to do unless you had books. So you went and got books or magazines, some maybe from the library, some from bookstores, and many of them might be for systems other than the C64. It wasn't uncommon for a magazine to have to cater to a dozen slightly different versions of BASIC: Apple…

Going back to a world where free and open software was the norm would be a mistake? Being able to buy one of a half-dozen or more periodicals with informative commentary on an accessible programming language would be a mistake? Empowering a generation of STEM learners with a basic programming language centered around the bedrock of computer science would be a mistake? Safely and easily gaining first-hand experience w…

If you think BASIC was free and open have I got a letter from Bill Gates to show you.

GCC is free and open. Clang is free and open. BASIC is commercial, proprietary, closed-source software.

The "bedrock of computer science" is machine code, or if you're not a fan of reading and writing hex values or flipping physical switches on your Altair, then assembly. Everything after that is an abstraction.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#137

Post by khazhou »

bsenftner wrote: post #53

"Back in the day" the BASIC language made sense, as it was right at your prompt in text based interfaces. The same situation today is the web browser, and the ability to open up the developer's console and getting direct access to a web site's JavaScript, html & CSS. Forget BASIC, and introduce your kids to web developing. They will "get it" much faster than "boring dumb BASIC, can't do web stuff, it sucks."

A huge part of the appeal of C64-style BASIC is the lack of distractions. I mean, you're already talking about CSS! :-)

A better match than Javascript (which doesn't have an interactive console, and HTML+JS is event-driven) would be Python.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#138

Post by astrodust »

dragonwriter wrote: post #130
astrodust wrote: post #124

In the old days you saved up an extraordinary amount of money, bought a Commodore 64, plugged it in, and then had absolutely no idea what to do unless you had books. So you went and got books or magazines, some maybe from the library, some from bookstores, and many of them might be for systems other than the C64. It wasn't uncommon for a magazine to have to cater to a dozen slightly different versions of BASIC: Apple…

> In the old days you saved up an extraordinary amount of money, bought a Commodore 64, plugged it in, and then had absolutely no idea what to do unless you had books. While I never got a C64, I did get a Timex-Sinclair 1000, a Timex-Sinclair 2068, and a PC clone in the early-to-mid 1980s, and all of them came with complete BASIC manuals as well as other system documentation.

Did it come with a mentor to help you understand all of that highly technical material?

Did you know anyone else that had a similar computer who was doing similar things with it?

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#139

Post by astrodust »

khazhou wrote: post #132
astrodust wrote: post #124

In the old days you saved up an extraordinary amount of money, bought a Commodore 64, plugged it in, and then had absolutely no idea what to do unless you had books. So you went and got books or magazines, some maybe from the library, some from bookstores, and many of them might be for systems other than the C64. It wasn't uncommon for a magazine to have to cater to a dozen slightly different versions of BASIC: Apple…

Sorry but none of that has anything to do with OPs request, except for where you say BASIC is terrible. - Lack of resources (books, mags, etc) -- no longer a problem - Platform differences and PEEK/POKE -- also not relevant. The Basic OP asks for would presumably have the necessary graphics/audio functions - Typing is frustrating -- also solvable easily. Just because a system drops you into Basic (aka a shell) doesn'…

Here you go: http://jsfiddle.net

An editor and an interpreter. Works in anything that can get a web browser going, which includes phones, game consoles, smart TVs, refrigerators, and amazingly even computers.

Re: Ask HN: Is there a modern “power on to basic” computer, for kids to learn on?

#140

Post by itomato »

alliecat wrote: post #17

Hear me out here; Apple's Swift Playgrounds on an iPad. I'm involved in an extracurricular thing in Scotland focused on giving kids an environment they can figure out computers. We've seen a lot of different approaches to the problem of "how can we get kids to code", and Swift Playgrounds is consistently where we see youngfolk making the most progress. It gives you a nice, guided framework to get the very basics of p…

I'd wager that a complete 8-bit system with printer and cassette storage is a better tool for learning.
Post reply on HN