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The highest paid workers in Silicon Valley are product managers (2016)

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Re: The highest paid workers in Silicon Valley are product managers (2016)

#131
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I've noticed is that companies generally have fewer PMs than software engineers. A company might have a whole team of engineers but only one PM, and the PM typically has a title like "Director of Product Management". So it gives the impression that product manager is a director-level position. But eventually as the company grows, they'll eventually hire more PMs who report to the Director of Product Managem…

I think this has some merit. I’ve seen ratios from 3:1 to 10:1 engineers to PMs at companies I’ve been at. I could imagine the ratio going even higher. Edit: this does raise the question, though: where do product managers come from? What does the career path of a PM look like, including what happens before they become PMs?

1) Straight from Business Schools - Folks who go into technology tend to become PMs after their MBAs

2) Internal transfers - Software Engineers switch to PM

3) Management/Technology Consultant -> PM: Folks switch from consulting (where they are implementing products designed by vendors) to becoming PMs in the vendor companies.

Re: The highest paid workers in Silicon Valley are product managers (2016)

#132

I swear, every time I read an article on HN about salary it gives me anxiety. I'm perpetually worried that I'm not earning as much as I should be earning. I don't think it is healthy but I can't look away.

Don’t sweat these. Every HN salary thread, people come out of the woodwork to note that their sister’s roommate’s brother works at Facebook and makes $300k, therefore all tech workers everywhere in Silicon Valley make that much on average. For some reason, people here love to take outlier employees at outlier companies and hold them up as averages.

Yeah, this is something I always wonder. Every time salaries come up here the anecdotal numbers batted around as "standard" in Silicon Valley get higher, and every time I neurotically search around the net for corroborating information and find little to none. I don't doubt these high salary figures are real, but I have doubts they represent the median.

Re: The highest paid workers in Silicon Valley are product managers (2016)

#133
I changed careers from software development to product management. The pay is marginally higher in PM roles, but it comes with significant downsides. If I switched back to a SDE role I could easily retain 80% of my compensation with literally half the work. In short: Don't look to product management as easy money.

Here are some of the downsides:

Product management is middle management. You're squeezed from above and below at the same time. Much has been written about upper management putting unfair demands on middle management, but that's usually a failure of upward communication. That's somewhat easy to solve. The real problem is that it only takes 1 or 2 ruthless rockstar engineers to derail a project. Companies know that genuine top-1% engineers are hard to come by, so they let a lot of bad behavior slide. I was shocked that the majority of politics within my role came not from the top as I naively expected, but from a handful of IC engineers who wanted to backseat drive.

Product management requires cooperation across the entire company, but you only have authority over a small fraction of the people required to get a product out the door. Getting my own team to deliver on time is easy. Getting all of the other upstream and downstream dependencies to line up is a political negotiation nightmare. On an average week I might spend more time holding other teams like marketing, devops, logistics, HR, and legal accountable for their part of the deal.

Being in product management is a great learning experience with a lot of exposure to new skills, but I can feel my software engineering abilities atrophy by the day. After a few years of a PM role, I'm very concerned that I wouldn't be able to return to a SDE job without investing a lot of time into interview practice.

There are fewer product manager roles out there. When I was a software engineer I never worried about finding a new job if I had to. As a product manager, I'm always worried about competing for one of the few product manager roles at other companies. On the other hand, good product managers are hard to come by, so a solid PM track record is golden if you can find a role that fits.

Finally: It's a very thankless job. Most weeks I feel like I spend 80% or more of my time just preventing things from going wrong. Come review time, there's not much to show for time spent mitigating potential disasters. Some of the worst product managers try to be the hero by only stepping in after catastrophic failures, at the expense of the company. Don't try to play that game. The key here is to constantly hone your communication skills within the company and to hold other teams accountable when they fail to deliver.

All in all, I enjoy the role and the work is rewarding. I wouldn't recommend product management to someone who is just looking for a salary bump, though.

Re: The highest paid workers in Silicon Valley are product managers (2016)

#134
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are more than "slightly" different. A product manger is a creative professional. A project manager is an administrative professional.

Creative writing, maybe? Outside of founder-level product managers, of which I have worked with several who are actually creative, I remain unconvinced there is much real difference.

Product Managers - identify problems to be solved, decide/play a role into what features goes into MVP or a release, talks to customers, comes up with/designs the solutions (functional solutions) to the problems (aka features and how they interconnect), do UI designs (major UI designs can go to the UX team, smaller UI designs stay with product manager), etc

If your company is using the sprint model, the Product manager is not doing much of project management.

At the end of the day, what a PM does depends on the company and how they use PMs

Re: The highest paid workers in Silicon Valley are product managers (2016)

#137
post #77

This is a stupid use of averages. PMs come in a little senior to rank and file programmers. That doesn't mean that a PM of ten years experience makes more than a programmer of ten years.

it doesn't mean it, but there is evidence to it being true. According to sallaries on glass door, in sanfrancisco with 10-14 years exp: Product Manager: 145k$ Web Developer: 110k$ Software Engineer: 135k$

135k is almost what many new grad software engineers make now, before considering stock. those numbers look very wrong

Re: The highest paid workers in Silicon Valley are product managers (2016)

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What, precisely, limits the supply of people who have "product talents to figure out what is valuable to produce"? Why are are people with such skills apparently more rare than people with technical skills?

I think as a mathematical comparison. Given a successful product, there are likely way more engineers than product people.

That's assuming the consequent though.

Re: The highest paid workers in Silicon Valley are product managers (2016)

#139

I swear, every time I read an article on HN about salary it gives me anxiety. I'm perpetually worried that I'm not earning as much as I should be earning. I don't think it is healthy but I can't look away.

I find them endlessly fascinating as well. My feelings are

1. Stop using the word "earning". We get paid, we don't necessarily earn our pay. Detach your pay from your perception about the work you do, and detach both from the value in the rest of your life. That may help you to take more money as well, if it turns out that that's what you really want.

2. As sibling comment says, it may be worth taking a pay cut in order to do something niche that interests you. I did this a long time ago and haven't regretted or reversed it. It returns the feeling of control to you.

3. Check out the country-wide or global statistics. I don't get paid all that much by HN standards, but I'm still in the top decile for my (rich) country.

4. People are very good at cutting cloth to what is available, and at making accommodations with it, so long as they are happy in other ways. I've had friends who get paid ten times what I do, and they are still living on the edge - one financial shock or employment setback and they're in trouble. My situation is no less secure than theirs.

Re: The highest paid workers in Silicon Valley are product managers (2016)

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Supply and demand? My assumption is the less challenging a technical project becomes, the more supply of engineering talents can work on the project. There should be more generalists after all. And dynamics of supply and demand will determine if engineers will be able to "hold out for ownership".

What, precisely, limits the supply of people who have "product talents to figure out what is valuable to produce"? Why are are people with such skills apparently more rare than people with technical skills?

That beats me. If I have to guess, I'd venture to say dealing with ambiguity is truly hard. As a production manager, you need to have unique insights on the market you're interested; you need to capture future trend; you need to understand human psyche, you need to convince your company to take risks and invest into something that does not necessarily have a future, you need to build trust with both the engineering team and the management, and you should be analytical enough produce supporting numbers. Many of such activities are ambiguous in nature, and getting clarity and buy-in out of such ambiguity is in high demand in the current market.

On a side node, engineers do sometimes need to function as PMs to build great product.

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