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Wikileaks dumps 400,000 more files

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Re: Wikileaks dumps 400,000 more files

#41

Post by mdolon »

gloob wrote: post #10
viggity wrote: post #2

I understand combing through this material and releasing information about illegal or highly suspect activities. But a carte blanche release of all this classified material is going to get even more innocent people killed.

This is the same sort of reasoning used by those who claim that America is responsible for September 11, 2001 because they spent the last 60 years dicking around in the Middle East. The second claim is true, and America bears responsibility for said dicking around. The first part is not - the blame falls on those who hijacked the planes and crashed them into things. People are not dying because Wikileaks releases stu…

"Responsibility for an action rests with those who carry out that action."

And with those who directly influence and, in this case, potentially enable those who carry out the action. Using your logic you can justify a lot of things that are illegal in this world, since you yourself are not directly responsible. You don't have to literally pull the trigger to kill someone. (accomplices go to jail too)

Re: Wikileaks dumps 400,000 more files

#42

Post by lefstathiou »

noelchurchill wrote: post #14
maukdaddy wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that people's lives will be in danger after releasing the information is even more reason to not engage in that behavior in the first place WTF is wrong with you? Would you feel differently if YOUR name was on the list?

"WTF is wrong with you?" Try refraining from personal attacks on HN. And to respond to your statement, you seem to be missing the bigger picture: How many soldiers have been put in harms way and died BECAUSE the truth was hidden from the public? How many more soldiers will die because of that? There is absolutely no justification for the armed forces to engage in unethical behavior.

I know quite a few people in the special forces on the ground all over the middle east and you'd surprised how many adamently believe that if Americans did indeed know "the truth", we would already be at war with half of the middle east and possibly Russia.

I think assuming that the American public has an aversion to war is a dangerous one. Remember that full transparency is a double edged sword. One the one hand people learn about the innocent loss of life, on the other, people may learn just how dangerous and determined the forces against "us" are. That could very well result in a cause to action.

We invaded two nations that presumably had nothing to do with 9/11 over 9/11. Take a moment to think about the potential ramifications of a population that is fully aware of the extent powerful movements within Iran, China, Russia, Vemezuela, Pakistan and a host of other countries go to undermine our national security and economic stability. In case you didnt know, the US is already fighting covert wars on all of those fronts (you can google around for articles on this stuff, they come out all the time)

Re: Wikileaks dumps 400,000 more files

#43

Post by jhgfdsahgf »

rbanffy wrote: post #38

Just as a counterpoint, risking godwining this topic: What would you think if we were in mid-1944 and these documents detailed the operations of Nazi Germany and listed several people who helped German occupation forces? The morality of this war is at the core of this discussion. If you feel this war is immoral, then those who helped occupation forces to commit war crimes deserve no sympathy. If, however, you feel th…

>US liberated Iraq from a bloody dictator

That the US installed, in a war justified by lies, or are we still looking for the weapons of mass destruction that could be used in 45mins?

Re: Wikileaks dumps 400,000 more files

#44

Post by doug11235 »

chalimacos wrote: post #16

Some answers here are striking coming from users of a site called "Hacker News". "We explore... and you call us criminals. We seek after knowledge... and you call us criminals. We exist without skin color, without nationality, without religious bias... and you call us criminals. You build atomic bombs, you wage wars, you murder, cheat, and lie to us and try to make us believe it's for our own good, yet we're the crim…

That was written by a kid sitting in jail for computer crimes. NOT the same as Hacker News.

Re: Wikileaks dumps 400,000 more files

#45

Post by danielnicollet »

Assange and his band of techno freedom fighters are doing something not so different from launching a major startup against a flood of large entrenched competitors. It's very similar in that they need to cross a chasm and seize their audience against many odds. There are many software technology, product development, marketing and PR aspects we can learn from here.

And the cause, well, we may not all agree with the cause but it's a heck a lot more courageous to fight for your ideas than for a pile of cash and equity!

Re: Wikileaks dumps 400,000 more files

#46

Post by rick888 »

rbanffy wrote: post #37
rick888 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We explore... and you call us criminals. We seek after knowledge... and you call us criminals. We exist without skin color, without nationality, without religious bias... and you call us criminals. You build atomic bombs, you wage wars, you murder, cheat, and lie to us and try to make us believe it's for our own good, yet we're the criminals." I've heard this manifesto used many times to defend behavior that is just…

> I've heard this manifesto used many times to defend behavior that is just as wrong. I am not sure it applies here.

"I am not sure it applies here."

Wikileaks wants to show the world the atrocities of the US military but at the same time, releasing this information may harm those involved. From your statement, you are trying to defend these actions through the hacker manifesto. As if it somehow okay because the information needs to be out there.

Re: Wikileaks dumps 400,000 more files

#47

Post by aaronbrethorst »

danielnicollet wrote: post #45

Assange and his band of techno freedom fighters are doing something not so different from launching a major startup against a flood of large entrenched competitors. It's very similar in that they need to cross a chasm and seize their audience against many odds. There are many software technology, product development, marketing and PR aspects we can learn from here. And the cause, well, we may not all agree with the c…

From what I've read, Assange is into ego-gratification, not idealism.

Re: Wikileaks dumps 400,000 more files

#48

Post by rick888 »

mquander wrote: post #36
rick888 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Why/how is it better?" I don't think you got my point. My point is that the people from Wikileaks (not me) believe that it's better to bring this information to light than prevent innocent lives from being lost. "Some of them probably even deserve it" It was a quote..as in I didn't say it or believe it. Look at some of the comments in this article. Many people believe that this info should be brought to light and to…

I don't believe you can show me a single comment anywhere that implies "it's OK because some of them probably even deserve it," because that sentiment makes no sense. It's extremely rude to put words like that in other people's mouths.

"I don't believe you can show me a single comment anywhere that implies "it's OK because some of them probably even deserve it," because that sentiment makes no sense. It's extremely rude to put words like that in other people's mouths."

It's also rude to down vote me to silence opposing views on this article. But, I digress....

Re: Wikileaks dumps 400,000 more files

#49

Post by paradoja »

hugh3 wrote: post #18
gloob wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Name a civilian whose name was disclosed by Wikileaks who has since been killed by enemy combatants. Surely to god some journalist somewhere has looked this information up and written an article about it.

How would you find out? Information coming out of Afghanistan is sketchy, there are very few journalists on the ground, we don't have lists of every civilian who gets killed.

Well, you'd expect the US Secretary of Defense to have an idea about it, and he says he doesn't know of any civilian killed for appearing in the previous documents ( http://edition.cnn.com/2010/US/10/16/wikileaks.assessment/ ).

Re: Wikileaks dumps 400,000 more files

#50

Post by cma »

viggity wrote: post #8
noelchurchill wrote: post #5

There is no justification for doing wrong. The motive for keeping incriminating evidence hidden is to continue engaging in nefarious behavior without being caught. The fact that people's lives will be in danger after releasing the information is even more reason to not engage in that behavior in the first place. It is NOT justification for continuing to hide the horrendous things that have been done. The only thing t…

and that includes disclosing names of civilians who are helping US Forces?

Wikileaks gave the military a virtual veto right over the afghanistan documents; the US chose not to allocate resources to looking over them.

With the 15,000 or so Afghanistan documents that Wikileaks continues to hold back, they again offered to let the US review and make redactions. The US again declined to do so (publicly this time). The US claimed that doing so might legitimize Wikileaks.

That shows where the US' interests really are; it isn't in protecting the civilian informants to any appreciable degree.

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