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The U.S. Needs to Crack Down on White-Collar Crime

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Re: The U.S. Needs to Crack Down on White-Collar Crime

#121

Post by Retric »

harryh wrote: post #43
acidbaseextract wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is that Mozilo's behavior resulted in personal gains against extreme public losses. It's in our best interest as a society to deter such behavior, while enabling whatever legitimate business Countrywide conducted. How do we best do that? The public at large wins — Mozilo should win, the public at large loses — Mozilo should lose. I think GP's point is that a $60M fine (against $520M in earnings) is not a an…

Maybe the fines are too low. I could be persuaded of that. I'm just saying that they aren't, as themagician asserted, lower than the actual gains from the frauds in question.

I agree all is a bit much but, it is more than 13% including penalties, especially when you include the effect the 'boosted' earnings had on the stock price.

Re: The U.S. Needs to Crack Down on White-Collar Crime

#122

Post by notfromhere »

deadmetheny wrote: post #118
cowkingdeluxe wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many ways to negatively affect election integrity, both illegal and legal. For example, in Georgia, US, one of the candidates himself blocked 53,000 voter registrations just 3 weeks before the election. The demographics of the 53,000 is 70% black. https://www.npr.org/2018/10/13/657109536/georgia-puts-53-000... Gerrymandering, strict voter id laws (e.g. requiring drivers license but removing all but one DMV…

The USA is one of the few countries in the world that doesn't require an ID to vote. I'm continually astounded by the fact that people consider that having some sort of identification, which most functioning adults ought to have anyway, is some sort of horrifying oppression.

Because it can be used to disenfranchise voters.

When Alabama enacted voter ID, it simultaneously shut down DMV offices in counties with the most potential black voters.

Or like in Texas where student IDs are specifically prohibited from being used for voting, even though gun permits are, in order to suppress student turnout.

Or in North Dakota, where voter laws were changed to suppress Native Americans from voting using tribal IDs.

Re: The U.S. Needs to Crack Down on White-Collar Crime

#123

Post by EADGBE »

scotty79 wrote: post #113
jjeaff wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While there have recently been some issues with some elections in the US, we definitely don't have an "election integrity" issue. There is very little evidence that any elections in the US have been affected by fraud by any significant amount.

Main "election integrity" issue is that you have just two parties to choose from. And that's very close to one.

It's also twice as many choices as one, too.

Re: The U.S. Needs to Crack Down on White-Collar Crime

#124

Post by paulie_a »

atr_gz wrote: post #91
zekevermillion wrote: post #12

We don't need a "crackdown". The problem with our approach to financial crimes is that it is based almost entirely on crackdowns -- splashy press releases that are supposed to deter all the thousands of other financial crimes that we lack resources to prosecute. Sometimes this leads to injustice, e.g., see the documentary film Abacus: Small Enough to Jail. The only bank to be prosecuted criminally for shenanigans in…

The story about Abacus was interesting. I didn't realize they were the only actual bank to be prosecuted. That said, a handful of employees at other small banks around the country were prosecuted - I personally know a low-level mortgage broker who went to prison for fraud related to the 2008 crisis. They were falsifying mortgage applications for unqualified customers. The enforcement still wasn't enough in my opinion…

Post 2008 the real estate industry was rife with fraud. I had a boss that got kickbacks from contractors fixing rigged bids on foreclures to the tune of 500-600k. He never got caught. It was blatantly illegal and involved federal agencies.

Re: The U.S. Needs to Crack Down on White-Collar Crime

#125

Post by dragonwriter »

pjc50 wrote: post #14

Well, yes: if you leave enough crime by the well-connected alone for long enough, in a country with poor election integrity and unlimited campaign finance spending, then you get a country run by gangsters. It came about pretty rapidly in Russia where there was no established democracy to displace.

> Well, yes: if you leave enough crime by the well-connected alone for long enough, in a country with poor election integrity and unlimited campaign finance spending, then you get a country run by gangsters.

No, if being well-connected means your crime gets left alone, you have a country run by, and for, gangsters. That's the initial condition, not the long term result if the situation continues.

If you do it long enough, people notice that the country is being run by and for gangsters.

Re: The U.S. Needs to Crack Down on White-Collar Crime

#126

Post by dragonwriter »

jjeaff wrote: post #78
pjc50 wrote: post #14

Well, yes: if you leave enough crime by the well-connected alone for long enough, in a country with poor election integrity and unlimited campaign finance spending, then you get a country run by gangsters. It came about pretty rapidly in Russia where there was no established democracy to displace.

While there have recently been some issues with some elections in the US, we definitely don't have an "election integrity" issue. There is very little evidence that any elections in the US have been affected by fraud by any significant amount.

Selective voter suppression and exclusion, which the US has had in a significant way for centuries, mitigated somewhat for a time by the voting rights act before it was gutted, is a pretty enormous issue with the integrity of democratic elections.

The idea that the US doesn't have election integrity issues is simply false.

Re: The U.S. Needs to Crack Down on White-Collar Crime

#127

Post by justtopost »

nothrabannosir wrote: post #33
drb91 wrote: post #6

Obligatory Chickenshit Club reference: https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Chickenshit_Club.ht...

I've been meaning to read this book, is it actually good? Is it reliable, or are the contents controversial?

Why are those mutually exclusive in your mind?

Re: The U.S. Needs to Crack Down on White-Collar Crime

#128

Post by tptacek »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #107
tptacek wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's much more bizarre than that. Vanguard is organized upside-down from most funds companies. Instead of a company that owns mutual funds, Vanguard funds own the management services company (and investors in turn own the funds). This aligns the incentives of Vanguard with its investors --- which is exactly what you want from a fund manager. Vanguard is in trouble for "charging" the funds below-market rate on the ser…

It's still kind of the same thing. Suppose you open a car dealership that gives every person who buys a car a share of the dealership. The next thing you know that dealership has the best service and the lowest prices and makes no profits, because all the owners are also customers and they care less about getting a $10 dividend than about service quality and price. So then the argument is they're under-charging thems…

I don't see it that way, since they could have simply organized the company the ordinary way, with a services company that owned multiple funds, and avoided these tax implications: the "transfers" we'd be talking about would still be happening, but they would be untaxable.

Re: The U.S. Needs to Crack Down on White-Collar Crime

#129

Post by ArchTypical »

notfromhere wrote: post #122
deadmetheny wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The USA is one of the few countries in the world that doesn't require an ID to vote. I'm continually astounded by the fact that people consider that having some sort of identification, which most functioning adults ought to have anyway, is some sort of horrifying oppression.

Because it can be used to disenfranchise voters. When Alabama enacted voter ID, it simultaneously shut down DMV offices in counties with the most potential black voters. Or like in Texas where student IDs are specifically prohibited from being used for voting, even though gun permits are, in order to suppress student turnout. Or in North Dakota, where voter laws were changed to suppress Native Americans from voting u…

> Because it can be used to disenfranchise voters.

So can knives.

> When Alabama enacted voter ID, it simultaneously shut down DMV offices in counties with the most potential black voters.

Most of these problems are now mitigated by years of not needing ID. Now we have voter registration mailouts and such. Don't just throw away a good idea because of past abuse. We strive to be better. Giving up is regressive.

Re: The U.S. Needs to Crack Down on White-Collar Crime

#130

Post by dragonwriter »

ArchTypical wrote: post #129
notfromhere wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it can be used to disenfranchise voters. When Alabama enacted voter ID, it simultaneously shut down DMV offices in counties with the most potential black voters. Or like in Texas where student IDs are specifically prohibited from being used for voting, even though gun permits are, in order to suppress student turnout. Or in North Dakota, where voter laws were changed to suppress Native Americans from voting u…

> Because it can be used to disenfranchise voters. So can knives. > When Alabama enacted voter ID, it simultaneously shut down DMV offices in counties with the most potential black voters. Most of these problems are now mitigated by years of not needing ID. Now we have voter registration mailouts and such. Don't just throw away a good idea because of past abuse. We strive to be better. Giving up is regressive.

> Don't just throw away a good idea because of past abuse.

The specific (Alabama) “past abuse” referred to by the grandparent was in 2011-2015, not some distant time where there has been intervening radical change in the political culture that would render it irrelevant.

> Don't just throw away a good idea

The whole idea was voter suppression. There is no good idea associated with Voter ID laws in the United States. People involved in them this decade have admitted the racial and partisan purpose (usually, when they thought only members of their race and party were around, obviously.)

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