Live data from Hacker News

The Reason We Haven’t Directly Detected Dark Matter

medium.com

251–260 of 315 posts

Re: The Reason We Haven’t Directly Detected Dark Matter

#251
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you do not need to measure it particle by particle. Just because those have mass, there should be a bunch of dark matter particles hanging around with earth. And given that we have quite good idea what earth consists of, there should be a discrepancy in some of the measurements that use earth's mass against the mass we have from our understanding of earth's composition. Unless, of course, the extra mass of earth…

Fascinatingly, it is known that the interaction of the dark matter with the Earth is so weak that there would be no "clumping" of it around the Earth at all! No "clumping" even around e.g. Sun can be observed. The "hanging around" is on the level of the whole galaxies, and sometimes the dark matter even remains outside of the whole galaxies, being too slow to follow their gravitational interaction(!) That's the famou…

> Fascinatingly, it is known that the interaction of the dark matter with the Earth is so weak that there would be no "clumping" of it around the Earth at all!

Would I be right in thinking that also puts severe limits on how much it interacts with itself? Because my intuition would be, if you loose normal matter into a gravity well, it will clump, even if it doesn't interact with the source of the gravity.

Am I inferring correctly?

Re: The Reason We Haven’t Directly Detected Dark Matter

#252
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neutrons are uncharged baryons. The problems with baryonic dark matter have little to do with the charge of quarks.

That quarks have charge, means they participate in electromagnetic interactions. So they can absorb, emit, & scatter photons. It doesn't matter that a neutron is overall charge neutral, because it's the elementary particles that make up the neutron, that participate in interactions. This is why, you don't fall through the earth, despite being made of charge natural atoms, because the surrounding electrons of our atom…

I think you are mistaken here.

Photons couple with charged particles due to their spin, this interaction can be seen through Compton scattering. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compton_scattering

However we have for example Neutrinos which are weakly interactive even more so than the photon and are not baryons (the real reason why neutrinos are not a baryonic DM candidate ;)).

A neutrino will not interact with a photon at all since photons do not have an interaction through W and Z bosons (both W, Z and Photons are electroweeak gauge bosons) and neutrinos are not charged.

There are a lot of reasons why you wouldn’t fall through the earth electromagnetism is just one of them, however even non charged baryonic matter can be “solid” and resist gravity for example neutrons will resist gravity through degeneracy it’s all a question of which type of interactions are possible.

There is much more to particle interactions than charge.

As far as photons interacting with neutrons, neutrons while being neutral in charge have a magnetic diepole which is why the photon can couple with them.

You can make baryonic matter that is massive and does not interact well with photons, the LHC has been making some new baryonic matter but none of it is a good candidate for dark matter so far.

But overall yes currently it looks like baryonic matter at least the one of the standard model without any extensions produces isn’t a good candidate for DM.

:)

Re: The Reason We Haven’t Directly Detected Dark Matter

#253

Super weird food for thought, but I used to think about the universe a lot as a kid, and back then we were under the assumption that the expansion of the universe was slowing. At some point that viewpoint changed and we now believe it is accelerating, hence the emergence of so called dark matter. Anyway, this led me to envision a fourth dimension, a sphere. Imagine that our universe began at any arbitrary point on th…

Think of 4 dimensional spacetime as an oddly-shaped rectangle, which is much wider at one end than another. Maybe more like a pyramid with the top bit missing. All of matter and energy started as an explosion at the narrow end, and is traveling across towards the much broader end. The expansion of the universe is merely the expansion of the barrel, and the dark energy spreading apart the universe is really the slight trajectory differences caused by the shape of the charge that started the process.

To me, it's like 3d canon shot flying down a 4d barrel.

Or trace the worldlines of these particles. Any given point in time represents a 3d slice of the 4d pyramid-rectangle.

Re: The Reason We Haven’t Directly Detected Dark Matter

#254
I have no chops whatever in this field, but it's fun to think of experiments we might do:

If I understand current theory, dark matter only interacts with itself and with ordinary matter through gravity. Hence the importance of Vera Rubin's observations [1] that some galaxies were rotating too darned fast to hold together based on the ordinary matter we could see. Gotta be something invisible generating more gravitational force.

If so, couldn't we expect larger masses to attract more dark matter than lesser masses? And mightn't very high resolution measurements of those masses' gravitational forces disclose a discrepancy attributable to more dark matter clustering around a larger mass?

I think of constructing two spheres, one of lithium (density = 0.534 g/cm^3), the other of platinum (density = 21.45 g/cm^3). Both have equal diameters, and very different masses. Park them out in space - maybe in an orbit inclined 90° to the ecliptic so there's some time when they're far away from the complicating effects of planetary masses.

Then release test objects with accurately known masses (think the silicon spheres made for Gravity B Probe's gyroscopes [2]) near each of the two spheres. Minimum approach speeds would be given by the assumption of only ordinary matter in the spheres, no dark matter present. If there is dark matter, and if it accumulates according to gravitational interactions, the test mass approach speeds should be greater than calculated from ordinary matter gravitational force. Also, the larger mass should attract more dark matter and exhibit a greater deviation from ordinary matter force.

Depending on the local density of dark matter, one might see the results change over time with differential accumulation of dark matter around the two spheres.

Do we have the measurement capabilities to do something like this? I recall LIGO measures distances four orders of magnitude less than the width of a proton.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vera_Rubin [2] https://einstein.stanford.edu/TECH/technology1.html

Re: The Reason We Haven’t Directly Detected Dark Matter

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why would dark matter be detected in galaxies but not in void space ? Why would those external world matter/energy be spatially syncrhonised at the place of galaxies ? Ockham Razor to the rescue.

I'm just a layman, but the parent said "if string theory is true, gravity does leak into the multiverse". Given that I'd imagine the clumpiness of our universe could influence the clumpiness of nearby universes (and vice versa).

Exactly. Not all galaxies have the same % of dark matter.In fact some have none.[1] Maybe those with little to none, formed by random fluctuations, while others formed because of the attraction to dark matter in their vicinity.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/galaxy-without-dar...

Re: The Reason We Haven’t Directly Detected Dark Matter

#256
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It has mass, so it by definition interacts with anything with mass? Yeah, but the only interaction is gravity. And nothing that clumps these particles together (such as the electro-magnetic force for ordinary matter). > Are these particles supposed to be so small and so rare that they can't be measured even at the scale of solar system? The additional mass can be measured, this is why we suspect the particles are t…

> The additional mass can be measured, this is why we suspect the particles are there in the first place :) Yes, in interstellar scale. How much there should be dark matter within solar system? 1 gram? 1 kilogram? I mean, if there was supposed to be 5/6 parts of mass of dark matter within solar system, it would quote obviously be somehow observable?

Great questions !

> How much [dark matter] [is] in the solar system ?

A lot, because the solar system is a huge volume and dark-matter fills it fairly uniformly (there is a small overdensity inside the sun, and the planets will also cause small departures from essential uniformity).

However, it's extremely sparse, so there isn't much in any small fraction of the solar system.

Compare that with the planets: they are extremely dense, but do not fill more than the tiniest fraction of the whole volume of the solar system. However, even so, even Phobos and Deimos have much more mass than all the dark matter inside Mars's orbit (see a couple paragraphs below).

~ one third of a million proton-masses for every cubic metre

~ 6 * 10^-22 kg for every cubic metre (Earth's density is 524 kg/m^3)

~ 0.65 kg / earth volume

http://cdms.berkeley.edu/Education/DMpages/FAQ/question36.ht...

Of course the total mass scales with volume.

Inside Neptune's orbit there is about 10^17 kg of dark matter; that's about ten Phobos-masses, or about the mass of 253 Mathilde (a carbonaceous intermediate-belt asteroid).

The volume of the galaxy is enormous, and with dark mater filling all of it roughly uniformly, the mass of all the visible matter is dwarfed -- there is an awful lot of space between star systems.

> somehow observable

It's not moving anywhere close to relativistically compared to the Earth's surface, and it doesn't feel electromagnetism. If we compare two other neutral particles, we have no practical ability to detect non-relativistic neutrinos (we can only spot a microscopic fraction of relativistic neutrinos from known sources) and have trouble spotting thermal neutrons (again, we generally need a known source that is "loud" with them, and additionally the collision momenta will still be larger than most collisions with solar system dark matter -- neutrons spit out of nuclear reactions are much faster than Earth's orbital motion through the extremely sparse dark matter the inner solar system sweeps through, and neutron beams used experimentally are generally a lot denser than ~ 3 neutron-masses per cubic centimetre).

Re: The Reason We Haven’t Directly Detected Dark Matter

#257
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neutrons are uncharged baryons. The problems with baryonic dark matter have little to do with the charge of quarks.

That quarks have charge, means they participate in electromagnetic interactions. So they can absorb, emit, & scatter photons. It doesn't matter that a neutron is overall charge neutral, because it's the elementary particles that make up the neutron, that participate in interactions. This is why, you don't fall through the earth, despite being made of charge natural atoms, because the surrounding electrons of our atom…

sigh

If you drop some neutrons on the ground, they will go through the ground some short distance until they interact with something, most likely via the weak interaction.

Photons do scatter off neutrons due to various effects, but the cross-section is really very low. I haven't checked the numbers, but I suspect that it's more than low enough that this type of scattering does not rule out neutrons as dark matter. (Plenty of other things do rule out neutrons as dark matter.)

The reason you don't fall through the ground even though you have almost no net charge has nothing to do with quarks.

Re: The Reason We Haven’t Directly Detected Dark Matter

#258
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moreover, locally, it is expected to be approximately uniform in density, which makes any gravitational interaction negligible. Nevertheless, our gravitational experiments can say things about the properties of dark matter (it generally obeys the Equivalence Principle): https://arxiv.org/abs/1207.2442 Furthermore, for certain classes of ultra-light dark matter, gravitational and spin-coupled searches can have somethi…

> locally, it is expected to be approximately uniform in density, which makes any gravitational interaction negligible. This seems like a weird thing to expect. What else has approximately uniform local density of distribution? Why would dark matter be different?

> What else has approximately uniform local density

Vacuum.

Cool-phase neutral atomic gas in interstellar settings.

Cool-phase neutral molecular gas ditto.

What breaks the uniformity of the latter two is mainly electromagnetic interactions. UV or X-rays will ionize them, and the freed electrons will cause secondary ionizations. This is the main pathway for heating neutral interstellar gases. Subsequent cooling is by photon emission. This drives dust-grain-forming chemistry; these grains are more dense than gas, and so have different gravitational observables as well as different emission/absorption characteristics. Very roughly, the dust grains can collide and stick to one another chemically, leading to further density non-uniformities.

Cold dark matter doesn't feel UV or X-Rays or it wouldn't be dark, and if it is collisionless (as in the standard model of cosmology) then there is no dark chemistry that can locally densify dark matter.

> What else has approximately uniform local density of distribution?

Really, anything that approaches an ideal classical gas. "Local" is an important qualifier.

A cubic centimetre of taken from near the middle of a small jar of water inside your household refrigerator or a cm^3 of gas taken from near the middle of a helium-filled balloon.

The middle, because the density differs at the boundary of the material in the container. Likewise, the density changes sharply at the edges dark matter clouds, but is fairly uniform in large volumes far from the boundary.

The overdensity in the jar's contents compared to the contents of the fridge overall and the underdensity of helium in a balloon in a room at sea level compared to the whole room are very roughly analogous to overensities and underdensities of dark matter at scales much larger than solar systems.

Re: The Reason We Haven’t Directly Detected Dark Matter

#259
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dark matter doesn't physically interact with itself or regular matter, so it doesn't "clump" the way regular matter does. A particle of dark matter will fall towards the Sun or Earth, but it doesn't stop when it gets there - it just carries right on through, with just as much energy as it had before. We expect there to be a dark matter "wind" passing through the solar system at galactic speeds, so it doesn't stick ar…

In general, though, shouldn’t we have dark matter “orbiting” massive bodies bound by their gravitational field?

The galaxy's dark matter is largely rotating with the bulk of the visible galaxy. However, the solar system's peculiar motion through the dark matter (DM[a]) does perturb the DM, and some DM will entrain to solar system objects (mostly the sun) leading to small overdensities.

However, remember that within the orbit of Neptune there is only about ten Phobos-masses worth of dark matter, or barely more than Jupiter's small moons Lysithea (disc. 1938) or Sinope (disc. 1914, until 2000 the outermost known moon of Jupiter).

Moreover, Jupiter can't really gravitationally entrain anything beyond 0.35 astronomical units away from it (otherwise the sun dominates), and gas (whether dark matter or electrically neutral atoms or light molecules[b]) is too low-mass to be drawn into a orbit around Jupiter with such a small radius.

There is likely a small overdensity of DM within the sun, but that's really a focusing of dark matter gas through gravitational lensing rather than dark matter gas staying trapped within the sun. It may help understanding if you hold the sun stationary and blow a wind of dark matter gas past (and through) it -- the gravitation of the sun pinches some of the gas inwards. Since on timescales of small numbers of years the sun has roughly constant velocity against the gas (or the wind blows with constant strength from a constant direction), the pinched wind is at a constant location and constant density deep within the sun.

Whether any of the less-massive bodies of the solar system have overdensities within them (or possibly tails[1]) depends on the mass of dark matter particles, and right now that's not well-enough constrained to answer with any confidence.

- --

[a] here I mean specifically cold dark matter (from the standard cosmology) rather than neutrinos. Solar neutrinos and (relativistic) neutrinos from far away sources are "hot" and so run away from the galaxy too quickly to account for much of its non-visible mass; cosmic neutrinos (the neutrino analogue of the cosmic microwave background) are cold and dark, but individually they're too low-mass to form galaxy or even galaxy-cluster size halos. The total mass of the cosmic neutrino background is also small.

[b] of course, ionization of neutral atoms and gas molecules is pretty likely in the solar system, and Jupiter has an enormous magnetotail. Dark matter doesn't feel magnetism (and isn't ionized by UV or X-rays), otherwise it wouldn't be dark. So while gases can be drawn around Jupiter electromagnetically, dark matter cannot.

[1] https://www.nasa.gov/feature/jpl/earth-might-have-hairy-dark...

Re: The Reason We Haven’t Directly Detected Dark Matter

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The additional mass can be measured, this is why we suspect the particles are there in the first place :) Yes, in interstellar scale. How much there should be dark matter within solar system? 1 gram? 1 kilogram? I mean, if there was supposed to be 5/6 parts of mass of dark matter within solar system, it would quote obviously be somehow observable?

The thing you are missing is that the "missing mass" isn't observable on the scale of the solar system. It's missing on the scale of large scale galactic structures -- i.e. lots and lots of galaxies . When we look at those structures, we can't figure out how they got that way unless there is a whole bunch more mass than there looks to be. Apart from that, we know nothing . People speculate that maybe there is some we…

It's also observable on the scale of galaxies. Evidence for dark matter includes observed inconsistency between galactic rotation curver and total mass estimates. But yes, some of the earliest evidence (decades of it) was unexpected behavior of galactic clusters.

Anyway, what we expect to see here is what's typical at our distance from Sagittarius A[star], and distance from the galactic plane.

Also, I gotta say that the galactic dark matter distribution reminds me a lot of Vinge's "Slow Zone" ;) A Fire Upon the Deep came out in 1992. I wonder whether he had dark matter in mind. He never used the term, as I recall.

Post reply on HN