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Oil droplets guided by pilot waves do not give rise to double-slit interference

quantamagazine.org

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Re: Oil droplets guided by pilot waves do not give rise to double-slit interference

#91
post #85

> Unsustained by the particle or droplet, the wavefront disperses long before reaching its slit, and there’s no interference pattern. The Danish researchers verified these arguments with computer simulations. Wait, what? From what I've always understood, the math behind de Broglie-Bohm interpretation results in the same exact results as the Copenhagen interpretation. It shouldn't be possible for any "computer simulat…

[deleted]

Re: Oil droplets guided by pilot waves do not give rise to double-slit interference

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you're describing has been desired by many (including Einstein). However, John Bell more or less proved it impossible[0] in a landmark, sweepingly general result. He would have won a Nobel for it if he had lived long enough. On the other hand, if you are willing to accept superluminal messages and also unobservable mechanics, there is always the pilot wave interpretation[1]. The fluid analogy is disappointing to…

> On the other hand, if you are willing to accept superluminal messages and also unobservable mechanics, there is always the pilot wave interpretation[1] All quantum interpretations have superluminal characteristics, but that's not the same as superluminal messaging/signaling.

That's true, I should have said "explicitly superluminal mechanics."

Re: Oil droplets guided by pilot waves do not give rise to double-slit interference

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surprisingly, physicists are very much aware of the field nature of all "entities" in the world, having invented QFT themselves. Even more surprisingly, popular journalistic explanations simplify things considerably, making it seem that the thoughts of physicists are much less refined than they really are. To complete the trifecta of surprises, in the refined thought process of us physicists, using QFT, many problems…

Regarding "in the refined thought process of us physicists...many problems and paradoxes...remain". It seems to me that a true paradox in physics must mean a theory provides at least two different incompatible predictions for a given physical situation. Given the success of the Standard Model, that surprises me. Do you have an example?

The use of the word "paradox" in physics usually means any conclusion that is considered unacceptable or unnatural for any reason, even intuitive. In logic there are no paradoxes, only contradictions. As far as we know there aren't any contradictions in the standard model, but there are plenty of suspicious conclusions that we would like to see resolved either with greater understanding or a better theory.

Re: Oil droplets guided by pilot waves do not give rise to double-slit interference

#94
post #72

I don't understand why non-locality is a problem. Fields are non-local. If particles are point-like, fields are volume-like and permeate all of space. Problems like spooky action at a distance aren't really problems if there is no distance from the field's point of view.

Fields are not nonlocal. Interactions in a field propagate at the speed of light or force-carrying particles. This is one of Eintein's major contributions to physics, that nothing travels faster than light.

I guess I'm arguing it's more a change of the field, not something propagating in it. Faster than light restrictions do not apply to space itself which, e.g. can expand faster than light. The electric field is a property of space. It's strength and properties do not depend on spacial coordinate.

When two particles are entangled, maybe instead the field is 'twisted/warped' at those particles. Entangling particles alters the field, not the particles.

Re: Oil droplets guided by pilot waves do not give rise to double-slit interference

#95
post #85

> Unsustained by the particle or droplet, the wavefront disperses long before reaching its slit, and there’s no interference pattern. The Danish researchers verified these arguments with computer simulations. Wait, what? From what I've always understood, the math behind de Broglie-Bohm interpretation results in the same exact results as the Copenhagen interpretation. It shouldn't be possible for any "computer simulat…

> Wait, what? From what I've always understood, the math behind de Broglie-Bohm interpretation results in the same exact results as the Copenhagen interpretation. The de Broglie-Bohm interpretation is not the same as the pilot-wave theory, which was never fully fleshed out. de Broglie-Bohm is valid and makes the same predictions as the standard interpretation, but as I understood it, has never been generalized to the…

> The de Broglie-Bohm interpretation is not the same as the pilot-wave theory, which was never fully fleshed out.

Most contexts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Broglie%E2%80%93Bohm_theory) define pilot-wave theory and the de Broglie-Bohm interpretation as the same. de Broglie himself also proposed a specific pilot-wave theory that is not valid (see article). When referring to a "pilot-wave" theory it is helpful to state specifically who the author is in order to resolve any likely confusion, which this topic usually seems to involve.

> has never been generalized to the relativistic versions of the standard theory

Quantum field theory generalizations( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Broglie%E2%80%93Bohm_theory...) do exist.

Re: Oil droplets guided by pilot waves do not give rise to double-slit interference

#96
post #85

> Unsustained by the particle or droplet, the wavefront disperses long before reaching its slit, and there’s no interference pattern. The Danish researchers verified these arguments with computer simulations. Wait, what? From what I've always understood, the math behind de Broglie-Bohm interpretation results in the same exact results as the Copenhagen interpretation. It shouldn't be possible for any "computer simulat…

> Wait, what? From what I've always understood, the math behind de Broglie-Bohm interpretation results in the same exact results as the Copenhagen interpretation. The de Broglie-Bohm interpretation is not the same as the pilot-wave theory, which was never fully fleshed out. de Broglie-Bohm is valid and makes the same predictions as the standard interpretation, but as I understood it, has never been generalized to the…

>This is discussed in the article; the de Broglie-Bohm interpretation relies on a global pilot wave, which has non-locality issues that pilot wave theory hoped to avoid.

Isn't it the other way round? Pilot-Wave theory having issues with non-locality that de Broglie-Bohm hoped to avoid?

Re: Oil droplets guided by pilot waves do not give rise to double-slit interference

#97
post #72

I don't understand why non-locality is a problem. Fields are non-local. If particles are point-like, fields are volume-like and permeate all of space. Problems like spooky action at a distance aren't really problems if there is no distance from the field's point of view.

Why isn't there distance from the field's point of view? Isn't the field spread throughout space?

But it's still considered one field, not many individual fields at each point. That's why I called it volume-like. The electric field of the universe doesn't have a position. It has a volume.

Re: Oil droplets guided by pilot waves do not give rise to double-slit interference

#98
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your whole characterization of pilot theory's value and its relation to other interpretations is incorrect. Firstly, it's primary value is that it's an ontological interpretation, meaning it preserves realism where most other interpretations sacrifice realism. The motion of its beables has nothing to do with this. Secondly, pilot wave theory still requires the fewest number of assumptions, roughly on par with…

I see many-worlds as a strict subset of pilot wave theory, since the pilot waves behave in exactly the same way as a many-worlds wavefunction. Adding a layer of particles-guided-by-the-waves on top of that is an extra complication that can only be justified (if at all) in terms of the intuitive appeal of their resemblance to macroscopic physics. (There's an argument of avoiding nonlocality/spooky-action-at-a-distance…

> Adding a layer of particles-guided-by-the-waves on top of that is an extra complication that can only be justified (if at all) in terms of the intuitive appeal of their resemblance to macroscopic physics.

This "Bohmian mechanics is Many-Worlds in disguise" is simply false [1]. The axiomatic basis is completely different, and this is apparent because with Bohmian mechanics you can easily derive the Born rule, and as a result, it also makes a new prediction that isn't allowed in typical QM, quantum non-equilibrium [2]. Deriving the Born rule with MWI is a hotly debated open problem.

[1] https://arxiv.org/abs/0811.0810

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_non-equilibrium

Re: Oil droplets guided by pilot waves do not give rise to double-slit interference

#99
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the link to Bell's Theorem (I recalled there being a result like that, but didn't remember the details of it). If the hidden variables really are in a higher dimensional space, then maybe superluminal communication (in our observable dimensions of space) isn't off the table either? But that comes with its own can of worms that would have to be taken care of as well.

If you give me both sides of a superluminal telephone I can use it along with special relativity to set up a time paradox. If I only have one end of the phone, or if I can't have a phone at all (not all apparently superluminal interactions allow signaling) then it's considered an undesirable trait but not paradoxical.

By paradox, do you mean something like reverting order of events in some inertial frames?

Re: Oil droplets guided by pilot waves do not give rise to double-slit interference

#100
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you give me both sides of a superluminal telephone I can use it along with special relativity to set up a time paradox. If I only have one end of the phone, or if I can't have a phone at all (not all apparently superluminal interactions allow signaling) then it's considered an undesirable trait but not paradoxical.

By paradox, do you mean something like reverting order of events in some inertial frames?

The order of events is fair game to reverse so long as they are far enough away from each other that one couldn't have caused the other. The order of pairs of events like that reverse all the time. It's only a time paradox if you can actually do something paradoxical, like killing your grandfather.
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