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Oil droplets guided by pilot waves do not give rise to double-slit interference

quantamagazine.org

81–90 of 130 posts

Re: Oil droplets guided by pilot waves do not give rise to double-slit interference

#81
post #9

I was thinking about the double-slit problem the other day, and was trying to make connections to any other phenomenon that exists in the natural world and I think I came up with one. In conditional probability theory, there exists something called the boy or girl paradox. The paradox shows that the likelihood of an event can be drastically affected by how you know even seemingly innocuous information. I think that o…

It's a paradox only because how question is put. Your wife says that neighbours have children, and she observed a boy. Then she observed boy again. What difference in probability having neighbours having a girl if you seen a boy once or twice.

You have red and black pebbles otherwise identical. Bag has 2 pebbles, you draw a pebble, it's red. You put it back. What's the probability of bag having black and red pebble? Draw again - red again. What's the probability of bag having black and red pebble? You acquire more data, therefore your estimate changes.

Re: Oil droplets guided by pilot waves do not give rise to double-slit interference

#82
I don't think this is all that surprising to anyone. The "pilot waves" in the oil bath aren't superluminal, so of course they don't correspond with perfectly QM pilot waves, ie. they will only correspond in scenarios where the non-locality doesn't matter.

Edit: the article actually agrees with this, so it's hyperbolic all the way through except this critical passage:

> In a quantum reality driven by local interactions between a particle and a pilot wave, you lose the necessary symmetry to produce double-slit interference and other nonlocal quantum phenomena. An ethereal, nonlocal wave function is needed that can travel unimpeded on both sides of any wall.

Re: Oil droplets guided by pilot waves do not give rise to double-slit interference

#83
post #53

I'm a bit sad that they couldn't reproduce the double slit interference pattern. I'm still holding out hope that we'll eventually develop a model of reality where the apparent indeterminism of quantum mechanics can be explained by currently unobservable interactions in higher dimensional space (such as the space described here: https://www.quantamagazine.org/physicists-discover-geometry-... )

I hold out some hope that the Holographic Universe principle will prove true and tractable, and in the holographic isomorphism there will still be some profound sense in which two entangled photons still somehow locally share a quantum qubit prior to disentanglement.

Don't be fooled by "local" in there; all non-locality results in 4D spacetime would remain true, because of course they have to. It would be "local" in an isomorphism that will be extraordinarily counterintuitive and probably never really be something anyone can "visualize".

But, if this did pan out, there would be a reasonable sense in which the Copenhagen interpretation would have something physics-al about it (as in, grounded in physics, not necessarily "physical" in the traditional sense), where it wasn't in fact "action at a distance". I for one have no problem with the universe creating probability distributions and then randomly picking a result, as some seem to. (The Universe May Do As It Damned Well Pleases. It's true that a good sense of aesthetics has given us a lot of power up to this point, but "I don't think that's very aesthetic" is not a very strong argument. I'll give it more than 0, but not much.)

Re: Oil droplets guided by pilot waves do not give rise to double-slit interference

#84
post #72

I don't understand why non-locality is a problem. Fields are non-local. If particles are point-like, fields are volume-like and permeate all of space. Problems like spooky action at a distance aren't really problems if there is no distance from the field's point of view.

Why isn't there distance from the field's point of view? Isn't the field spread throughout space?

Re: Oil droplets guided by pilot waves do not give rise to double-slit interference

#85
> Unsustained by the particle or droplet, the wavefront disperses long before reaching its slit, and there’s no interference pattern. The Danish researchers verified these arguments with computer simulations.

Wait, what? From what I've always understood, the math behind de Broglie-Bohm interpretation results in the same exact results as the Copenhagen interpretation. It shouldn't be possible for any "computer simulation" to disprove it, by definition.

This article feels 1) pointless and 2) like it has an agenda. Oil droplets are a macro-scale approximation of something on the particle level where we already know the math works. This doesn't disprove anything, any more than doing experiments with rubber sheets and basketballs lets you disprove the general theory of relativity.

> crushing a century-old dream that there exists a single, concrete reality.

This is just sensationalist, cheap journalism. I expected far better from Quanta Magazine, and I'm disappointed in them. I've enjoyed many of their articles in the past, but I'm not sure I can trust them editorially any more if they print something so obviously incorrect as this article.

Re: Oil droplets guided by pilot waves do not give rise to double-slit interference

#86
post #72

I don't understand why non-locality is a problem. Fields are non-local. If particles are point-like, fields are volume-like and permeate all of space. Problems like spooky action at a distance aren't really problems if there is no distance from the field's point of view.

Fields are not nonlocal.

Interactions in a field propagate at the speed of light or force-carrying particles.

This is one of Eintein's major contributions to physics, that nothing travels faster than light.

Re: Oil droplets guided by pilot waves do not give rise to double-slit interference

#88
post #3

All the paradoxes disappear if we use Quantum Field Theory instead of Quantum Mechanics. I would really like someone with deep knowledge on Quantum Theory to explain if something is wrong with a theory that otherwise makes a lot of sense to me. A good read on the topic is the paper "There are no particles, there are only fields" — https://arxiv.org/pdf/1204.4616.pdf

Quantum Field Theory in plain English means "3D Array of Integers Theory".

Re: Oil droplets guided by pilot waves do not give rise to double-slit interference

#89
post #85

> Unsustained by the particle or droplet, the wavefront disperses long before reaching its slit, and there’s no interference pattern. The Danish researchers verified these arguments with computer simulations. Wait, what? From what I've always understood, the math behind de Broglie-Bohm interpretation results in the same exact results as the Copenhagen interpretation. It shouldn't be possible for any "computer simulat…

> Wait, what? From what I've always understood, the math behind de Broglie-Bohm interpretation results in the same exact results as the Copenhagen interpretation.

The de Broglie-Bohm interpretation is not the same as the pilot-wave theory, which was never fully fleshed out. de Broglie-Bohm is valid and makes the same predictions as the standard interpretation, but as I understood it, has never been generalized to the relativistic versions of the standard theory. That is, there is no de Broglie-Bohm version of quantum field theory.

This is discussed in the article; the de Broglie-Bohm interpretation relies on a global pilot wave, which has non-locality issues that pilot wave theory hoped to avoid.

> It shouldn't be possible for any "computer simulation" to disprove it, by definition.

Here I believe they are disproving the idea that the oil droplets riding the pilot waves cannot result in the double-slit interference pattern, using standard fluid mechanics (which appears to be Tomas Bohr's area of expertise).

Re: Oil droplets guided by pilot waves do not give rise to double-slit interference

#90
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole value of pilot wave theory was that it was an interpretation of QM in terms of things that behaved like ordinary macroscopic particles and waves. Given that ordinary particles and waves don't actually behave like that, there's absolutely no reason to prefer pilot wave theory over simpler, more direct interpretations of QM.

I think your whole characterization of pilot theory's value and its relation to other interpretations is incorrect. Firstly, it's primary value is that it's an ontological interpretation, meaning it preserves realism where most other interpretations sacrifice realism. The motion of its beables has nothing to do with this. Secondly, pilot wave theory still requires the fewest number of assumptions, roughly on par with…

I see many-worlds as a strict subset of pilot wave theory, since the pilot waves behave in exactly the same way as a many-worlds wavefunction. Adding a layer of particles-guided-by-the-waves on top of that is an extra complication that can only be justified (if at all) in terms of the intuitive appeal of their resemblance to macroscopic physics.

(There's an argument of avoiding nonlocality/spooky-action-at-a-distance which I find specious: the particles are indeed localised but they don't actually play any significant role in determining behaviour. The pilot waves are doing all the work in the theory, and they have all the usual entanglement/interference/... behaviour (as they must, in order to be a correct theory of QM)).

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