Delete Your Account Now: A Conversation with Jaron Lanier • Hacker News Board

Re: Delete Your Account Now: A Conversation with Jaron Lanier

#41

Post by decasia » Thu, Oct 11, 2018, 1:23 PM UTC

darkerside wrote: post #28

decasia wrote: post #7

The thing I keep thinking is that I want to have social software built on a co-operative model (like a food co-op): you all pay some nominal membership fee (could you fund servers and developers on $5/year/user?), and the software would then be developed to fit the agreed-upon needs of the community, without dark patterns or behavior modification projects, openly, and with some kind of community governance (which nee…

I'm not a big government advocate, generally speaking, but enacting this at a federal level, would be akin to a modern day postal service. Social media communication without the bells and whistles--or the obsession with engagement. I'd be all for it.

Not sure why you're getting downvoted. I don't think it's likely that government-provided social software would work all that well in the contemporary USA (unless they built it with better security and privacy than they have ever wanted to see in the private sector), but the government can be seen as a version of cooperative funding and it's certainly worth thinking about.

I would like it if my local government funded an alternative to Nextdoor, for instance.

Re: Delete Your Account Now: A Conversation with Jaron Lanier

#42

Post by crispyambulance » Thu, Oct 11, 2018, 1:23 PM UTC

spot wrote: post #35

crispyambulance wrote: post #32

I wish there was still hope for Ted Nelson's concept of Hypertext. Up until some time in the mid 90's people were thinking of the internet as something intrinsically decentralized. The idea was that we, as individuals, would participate in new forms of discourse and creation through the "media" of hypertext _without_ intermediaries other than (perhaps) agents we would create for ourselves on an individual basis (like…

Nelson's concept was more centralized, and that's why it failed. Having no implementation didn't help.

It is only the media itself that is centralized in Nelson's vision. Today it is the giant middle-men that are "centralized" and call themselves "media".

According to Jaron Lanier, Xanadu (Ted Nelson's concept) was all about "two-way" connectivity, not in a trivial sense like client/server websites today but deeply as in a "we're all authors" sense.

    > "A core technical difference between a Nelsonian network
    > and what we have become familiar with online is that [Nelson's]
    > network links were two-way instead of one-way. In a network
    > with two-way links, each node knows what other nodes are
    > linked to it. ... Two-way linking would preserve context. 
    > It's a small simple change in how online information should
    > be stored that couldn't have vaster implications for
    > culture and the economy."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Nelson

Re: Delete Your Account Now: A Conversation with Jaron Lanier

#43

Post by JepZ » Thu, Oct 11, 2018, 1:23 PM UTC

decasia wrote: post #7

The thing I keep thinking is that I want to have social software built on a co-operative model (like a food co-op): you all pay some nominal membership fee (could you fund servers and developers on $5/year/user?), and the software would then be developed to fit the agreed-upon needs of the community, without dark patterns or behavior modification projects, openly, and with some kind of community governance (which nee…

Well, while I dream the same dream, it feels awkward asking my family and friends to pay 5€ per year so that we can share the cost of running our XMPP-Server. Currently, I pay all the bills and manage the server myself (so no cost/effort for them), and they still keep using WhatsApp with most of their contacts.

I don't know what the root of that evil is, but there are undoubtedly multiple factors involved. First of all, most people have WhatsApp already.

Secondly, it is effortless to use. With federated systems, you always have to choose a provider. Once you have overcome that hurdle, the privacy-sensitive people like us do not want to share their address book with the server so finding your people is a manual setup for everyone (another hurdle).

Last but not least, the client landscape of XMPP is still far from perfect. If you want to use end-to-end encryption (e.g., OMEMO) there are finally some clients which work with each other (Android: Conversations, iOS: ChatSecure, Desktop: Gajim), but configuring all that stuff (Server + Clients), is not as easy as pushing a button. Other features like video calls are still very fragmented and rarely work if different clients are involved.

I think it would take ten dedicated developers about a year to fix all those problems (if they would agree on common goals and focus on those) and even after that, we would still have to sell the product.

Re: Delete Your Account Now: A Conversation with Jaron Lanier

#44

Post by thelastidiot » Thu, Oct 11, 2018, 1:25 PM UTC

This guy sounds like a child. I was surprised about the lack of depth in his reasoning and explanations.

Re: Delete Your Account Now: A Conversation with Jaron Lanier

#45

Post by hannasanarion » Thu, Oct 11, 2018, 1:25 PM UTC

decasia wrote: post #39

zaarn wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally favor the federated model. In there, you can have some communities that run co-op and some that are free to use. It also makes the ecosystem more open compared to centrally managed software, even if it's transparent and without dark patterns. (Plus, how do you police it if you're talking about a company that is well versed in the art of 'taking it over the line by 1 inch per year')

Federated communities would be neat and basically are how the "real world" already interconnects, socially speaking. I don't think that's exclusive of what I had in mind. But you have to actually have the communities before you can do the federation (this is also how it works in the offline world — it's not like people design interoperability protocols and THEN found villages).

So what you're saying is, we should try to convince the existing villages (Facebook, reddit, Twitter) to adopt interoperability protocols?

Re: Delete Your Account Now: A Conversation with Jaron Lanier

#46

Post by decasia » Thu, Oct 11, 2018, 1:32 PM UTC

JepZ wrote: post #43

decasia wrote: post #7

The thing I keep thinking is that I want to have social software built on a co-operative model (like a food co-op): you all pay some nominal membership fee (could you fund servers and developers on $5/year/user?), and the software would then be developed to fit the agreed-upon needs of the community, without dark patterns or behavior modification projects, openly, and with some kind of community governance (which nee…

Well, while I dream the same dream, it feels awkward asking my family and friends to pay 5€ per year so that we can share the cost of running our XMPP-Server. Currently, I pay all the bills and manage the server myself (so no cost/effort for them), and they still keep using WhatsApp with most of their contacts. I don't know what the root of that evil is, but there are undoubtedly multiple factors involved. First of a…

I don't know if I would build something from scratch that was based on XMPP or even on the idea of messaging. I keep thinking that the Twitter/FB/chat models of socializing is a very limited form of online sociability and that we could do better.

I think it would be better to build something that was sufficiently compelling and had enough new features/UX that people would want to use it all on its own, as something better than the existing ad-supported options, and then we would enable federated options as an alternative form of access. But I think the primary UX has to be "log in to web app" or "install mobile clients," not "fiddle with XMPP settings" (because that is too fiddly, like you're saying, and you have to meet people where they are).

This being said — it's excellent that you run your own server and managed to get some of your social network to actually use it!

Re: Delete Your Account Now: A Conversation with Jaron Lanier

#47

Post by FabHK » Thu, Oct 11, 2018, 1:32 PM UTC

caymanjim wrote: post #19

binarnosp wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't need software to socialize. Some tasks of our life can be taken over by software, but others should stay with us. Especially with the advent of AI, engineers are racing to automate everything: from suggesting us new friends, new music, with which dresses we look smart, and so on. Automating everything will cause the atrophying of our skills and we will become a bunch of lonely depressed, smartly dressed user…

Your response is literally a use of software to socialize. Of course we don't "need" it, but that's a meaningless statement. We don't need computers or electricity either. The idea that we're all being duped and manipulated into using something we don't need so that we'll view ads is overblown. It's not false, it's just not a new thing and it's not a problem. Media has been intertwined with market research, ratings,…

The fact that ads and news (!) are individually targeted is new, and I'd consider it a huge threat. Decades ago, some news and shows were watched by everyone. There was still plenty of variety to go off in individual directions, but there was a common ground. That is being threatened.

> People aren't that stupid. They know what they're trading for these great free products we all use.

Maybe for most HN readers, but I don't think that is the case for most users.

Re: Delete Your Account Now: A Conversation with Jaron Lanier

#48

Post by Carlton87 » Thu, Oct 11, 2018, 1:35 PM UTC

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #20

decasia wrote: post #7

The thing I keep thinking is that I want to have social software built on a co-operative model (like a food co-op): you all pay some nominal membership fee (could you fund servers and developers on $5/year/user?), and the software would then be developed to fit the agreed-upon needs of the community, without dark patterns or behavior modification projects, openly, and with some kind of community governance (which nee…

Before everyone had to be on Facebook, a few friends and relatives used a hidden forum on someone's spare domain, and it worked really nicely. A co-op social network sounds an interesting idea. Doubly so if it gave only the sort of features early Facebook had - i.e. the ones useful to the users, before it became about the algorithm, engagement and so on. Wouldn't be surprised if there's something along those lines on…

Nobody has to be on Facebook. I deleted mine in 2008 and never looked back.

Re: Delete Your Account Now: A Conversation with Jaron Lanier

#49

Post by decasia » Thu, Oct 11, 2018, 1:35 PM UTC

dwighttk wrote: post #36

Maximus9000 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> $5/year/user I think facebook has each user valued at about $200USD/year. A 2016 article from the Guardian puts it at $60/year... so I'm not sure which number to believe. https://www.kqed.org/news/11661387/heres-how-much-you-are-wo... https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jan/28/how-much-...

That's revenue though, right? Parent was asking about cost. This network would have no ad revenue.

Yeah, from the perspective of starting something cooperatively funded from scratch, I think it's basically about "what would it cost to get something running and keep it worth using," balanced against "what would people actually be willing to pay?"

In my dreams, if the price point were low enough, like "the cost of two coffees per year" or something, and it wasn't irritating to pay it, there are plenty of people who want out of FB and could afford that.

Re: Delete Your Account Now: A Conversation with Jaron Lanier

#50

Post by FabHK » Thu, Oct 11, 2018, 1:37 PM UTC

crispyambulance wrote: post #32

I wish there was still hope for Ted Nelson's concept of Hypertext. Up until some time in the mid 90's people were thinking of the internet as something intrinsically decentralized. The idea was that we, as individuals, would participate in new forms of discourse and creation through the "media" of hypertext _without_ intermediaries other than (perhaps) agents we would create for ourselves on an individual basis (like…

Related, I was sad to see that in the neighbouring Soyuz-ballistic-descent thread most references to news and updates were not the informative NASA blog [1], but Twitter "tweets". Talk about unnecessary centralisation.

[1] https://blogs.nasa.gov/spacestation/