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The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

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Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#261
post #13

Google is "flying a banner of doing no evil, and then they're perpetrating evil under our noses," says Abraham J. Briloff, a professor emeritus of accounting at Baruch College who has examined Google's tax disclosures. Maybe it is the lawyer in me, but why wouldn't any international business do whatever it could legally do to minimize its taxes? I understand that governments might want to consider these as loopholes…

(part 2/2...sorry about the length folks)

OK, so what does all this have to do with Google? Well the problem is that such companies are welcomed when they set up overseas, and great expectations accompany them. And in the short term, there seems to be a distinct increase in prosperity - but people tend to extrapolate the growth trend endlessly into the future, and spend the money almost as fast as they make it. When the inevitable inflation ensues, they tend to feel they got a bad deal and go protectionist or sometimes enact draconian new tax policies. Oh, and the Irish government is also in bad odor with other European countries, who have felt for a while that the country took advantage of its small size to get away with significantly undercutting its neighbors on corporate taxes during the good times, leaving a correspondingly deep fiscal hole now.

Back in California, people look at the overseas investment made by the multinational and conclude that if the expansion actually cost the firm a lot less than imagined, then the favorable domestic tax treatment of the overseas operations (an indirect export subsidy, in effect) essentially amounted to the US taxpayer bankrolling their overseas expansion without any of the benefits coming back to the US Treasury later. But isn't that good for overall US competitiveness? Maybe, but who was Google (or Yahoo, or...) competing with internationally when it set up shop in Europe - Baidu? I can't even name a UK or Euro search competitor of any significance off the top of my head.

So it's not obvious what US taxpayers gained by letting Google out of paying US taxes on Euro/Eastern Hemisphere operations. Sure, Google expanded its operations and brand, and indirectly the economic reach of the USA, but as they were also getting a sweet legal/taxation regime at the other end - much lower than the headline 12.5% corporate tax rate in Ireland - then it seems as if the vast bulk of the benefits went to Google. OK, they have to pay tax somewhere, but Bermuda, like most tax havens, is such a small country that even a tiny slice in 'fees' is a huge feast. Again, like most tax havens, Bermuda's actual contribution to the global economy is almost nil; about the only argument you can make in their favor is that they contribute to increased liquidity.

There's a worthy philosophical debate here about the ultimate economic value of exporting low tax rates. But in the short term, the pragmatic result is that governments of more developed countries feel scammed, because they obeyed the popular wish of investing in things like infrastructure and education in hope of a long-term payoff, and now that they find themselves distinctly short of cash it's hard to explain why the payoff has failed to materialize (or why they didn't manage it very well, when it did). Of course, there's a little bit of hypocrisy going on here - well, actually a lot. Governments are often getting sweetheart deals on the back end; this arguably represents a transfer of wealth from the US to the populations of other countries, even if only in terms of lost wages for jobs that are not location-specific.

As neither the US nor the Irish or Dutch treasuries saw a great direct benefit, routing all the money through Bermuda has the political (not legal) appearance of a money-laundering operation. Particularly in Ireland, where people paying 20-40% in personal income taxes and almost 20% in VAT (sales taxes) are wondering what is the point of having one of the world's lowest rates of corporate tax (12.5%) if the government doesn't even collect most of it from large foreign firms. This is exactly the sort of thing that tends to give people the idea that it might be better to just have their treasury own shares in the company instead, a strategy employed with varying degrees of success in places like Venezuela and France.

I want to make it clear that I personally don't subscribe to the idea of state-owned industry or the idea that you can tax your way to economic success. There are reasons Europe doesn't produce the kind of industrial giants the US does, and why the European software industry is much less competitive than that in the US - they're not all to do with heavy-handed industrial/tax policy or regulation, mind, but those things do play a big part.

But when there is a good deal on offer (such as Ireland's low corporate tax rates, much cited in the US during recent years), the short-term tax savings of trying to further minimize tax liability have to be weighed against the long-term skepticism that manifests at the bottom of a business/economic cycle. Google is a smart company and may decide it has an interest in writing a $500m check or so to the Irish government now, rather than risk being frozen out of the European market in the future by penal regulation or hit with fines from the EU's muscular competition commission. Possibly the US government too, rather than being subjected to excruciating Congressional hearings. At the very least, they are probably going to have to give up using the 'double Irish' method of moving their money around. Bermuda will have to sit through some chilly diplomatic meetings and make some concessions about the transparency of its financial reporting or the accounting standards it uses, as have other tax havens of yore such as Jersey, Monaco and so on.

To sum up, I agree with George that from a legal (and short-term economic) point of view, running profits through Dublin and then putting them through some quirky Dutch-Bermudan slimming diet before running them back through Dublin is an entirely rational course of action. And it may well be a superior moral course of action, if you consider that Google contributes significantly towards the common good by making a wide variety of high-quality services available to the public for nothing - services on which large chunks of the US economy have come to depend, and I include myself in that. I honestly can't think of another company that makes such a generous value proposition, and don't find the price of personally-targeted advertising very onerous.

But from a political point of view, the practice is unsustainable and deeply unwise. Entrepreneurs and fiscal/transactional engineers are a small minority of the population. Some chunk of the population leans left and thinks corporations should be taxed much, much more severely, because the infrastructural foundation of their business model was heavily subsidized by the public. Another chunk leans right and while not being in favor of taxes much, sees no reason why the US taxpayer should be indirectly subsidizing people in other countries like Bermuda or Ireland. Then you have centrist voters who may not understand or care much about the details but are worried about US jobs going abroad, a rising deficit, and can grasp the basic idea that Google is using a legal fiction to reduce tax liability. Go there's a good chance that Google is going to find itself being the national punching bag for the next week or three.

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#262
post #5

What this should signal, is that the US should lower its corporate tax rate. Even just making it competitive with other developed nations would probably generate more revenue for the government. And though it would still be higher than the effective rate many companies pay with all these transfer schemes, it would make the hassle less worthwhile. However, what it will actually cause lawmakers to do is increase regula…

The US Corporate Tax is one of the lowest in all the world. http://www.qbalance.com/Corporate_Tax_Rates_United_States.ht... But Bermuda still beats out us at ZERO corporate tax rate.

Actually, you are wrong, we have one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world when you also take into account the state tax: http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/22917.html

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#263
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Google's board and executives are legally obligated to maximize shareholder value. Shareholders can sue otherwise." Common fallacy. No they're not, and no they can't. See, eg http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1013744

Are you saying that a corporation does not have a fiduciary duty to its shareholders? That paper just expresses a limitation of conclusions that can be drawn from a single case, Dodge v Ford .

The broader question is whether that fiduciary duty is best served by maximizing short-term profits or long-term reliability (including abstractions such as goodwill and a stable regulatory environment).

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#264
post #193
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but it's equally a stretch to suggest that we're better off because Google pays less tax In absolutely no way is it a stretch to say that and I'm terribly surprised you have any upvotes. Are you aware of how many services Google provides for free that make my life (and probably yours) better? Google Search Google Maps Android Google Navigation (on Android) Google Patent Search Google Book Search (Working with librari…

> Are you aware of how many services Google provides for free that make my life (and probably yours) better? Are you aware of how many services the NHS provides for free which make my life better, despite being cripplingly underfunded? I'm not saying that google are evil for avoiding taxes, bit neither am I convinced that I wouldn't be better off if the money made its way into my governments hands.

You're not saying much of anything. Health care is good and killing people in Iraq and Afghanistan is bad. Google doesn't have much to do with one or the other. Nor is the company responsible for the distributional choices British taxpayers make when they elect government officials who decide to underfund public health in favour of blowing stuff up.

Why is this even a point under discussion?

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#265
post #113
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ethics aside, Google shouldn't seek to deprive nations of tax revenue because they benefit in no small part from that money. They hire employees educated with government money, buy research projects funded with government money, build data centers that depend upon public infrastructure, etc. Frankly, without government money, Google would not exist. By gaming the tax systems, they're not only flipping the bird to the…

+1. This is similar to the major reason I despise the band U2 (besides their awful music): they bitch and moan about helping poor children in Africa. They even recently complained that the British gov't doesn't send enough money to impoverished countries. But they have a major tax haven set up that deprives the gov't of tax revenue. You just need to be consistent. Google has gotten a lot of benefits out of their "Do…

Not exactly. Artists (musical, visual, literary) in Ireland aren't taxed on the proceeds of their sales, largely because Ireland benefits substantially in tourism and other revenue from exporting its culture.

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#266
post #113
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ethics aside, Google shouldn't seek to deprive nations of tax revenue because they benefit in no small part from that money. They hire employees educated with government money, buy research projects funded with government money, build data centers that depend upon public infrastructure, etc. Frankly, without government money, Google would not exist. By gaming the tax systems, they're not only flipping the bird to the…

+1. This is similar to the major reason I despise the band U2 (besides their awful music): they bitch and moan about helping poor children in Africa. They even recently complained that the British gov't doesn't send enough money to impoverished countries. But they have a major tax haven set up that deprives the gov't of tax revenue. You just need to be consistent. Google has gotten a lot of benefits out of their "Do…

But U2 is FROM Ireland...

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Don't be evil" and "Don't break laws" are very different things. If Google's motto was just "don't break laws", they wouldn't be inviting quite so much criticism for legal-but-dubiously-ethical stuff like this.

It's not evil to keep money you earned.

if you think you can earn money without the government.

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#268
post #79
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope you guys can find other means/ways to create jobs. I live in Vancouver where hi-tech companies receive generous amount of SR&ED (Science Research and Education) grant. Let's just say that it was a good thing for short-term but not-so for long-term.

Could you go into more detail?

In BC, if you are a hi-tech company, you are eligible to receive SR&ED (given by the government, but you need to fill some paperworks).

In the short-term, it's great because it gives your company some money to survive. In the long-term, when your actual balance sheet is red but because of SR&ED it becomes green, most companies are lying to themselves.

There are many companies in BC that rely on SR&ED and as a result, they're not dead nor living. They can't pay top money for top talent. Their product/software take the hit. There are many CEOs that only want to ship the product ASAP or else they're going down ASAP as well.

In general, it's a vicious cycle.

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First off, I don't care who you are or what you do. No single individual creates that much value. A CEO makes big decisions, sure. But he receives advice from countless people on those decisions, and countless more people make those decisions a reality. Companies create value through the actions of hundreds if not thousands of people. The decisions of its well paid leaders are more valuable than the actions of the av…

> First off, I don't care who you are or what you do. No single individual creates that much value. A CEO makes big decisions, sure. Do you know any CEOs in the mold you're describing? I know... one. He was VP running one division of a company that was flagging, actually the whole company was flagging. He systematically promoted, trained, recruited, and refocused his division, until it became 80% of the company's rev…

I'd be happy to continue on email. I've enjoyed it too. It's always good to have a foil. With out them, we never learn :)

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What if my income is $250 million? It still evil for the government to claim a percentage of that to provide services? To make $250 million honestly, you'd have to produce value far in excess of $250 million. And yes, taxing people for producing value with their own labor is wrong to me. This is not an argument that all taxation is bad. You need taxes to run society. But taxing earned income seems wrong to me - the…

First off, I don't care who you are or what you do. No single individual creates that much value. A CEO makes big decisions, sure. But he receives advice from countless people on those decisions, and countless more people make those decisions a reality. Companies create value through the actions of hundreds if not thousands of people. The decisions of its well paid leaders are more valuable than the actions of the av…

Heh, posting the executives make too much money in a business oriented forum is bound to be unpopular. shrug

Look at the people actually taking salaries that high. They're the financial industry executives who just ran their companies into the ground and had to be bailed out. Look at the people actually creating tons of value. The people who are heros to most of the people on HN. Steve Jobs has a salary of $1. So do Larry Page and Sergey Brin.

Good executives do not think so highly of themselves that they pay themselves that much more than their employees. Granted, the people in question can afford to do this because they are wealthy in stock and dividends.

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