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The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

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Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#151

Post by yummyfajitas »

borism wrote: post #131
yummyfajitas wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, you tell me. Why do you believe low corporate taxes are the cause of Ireland's problems? Before making your argument, keep in mind that 12.5% of something > 33% of nothing.

I have a very hard time understanding how you translate my line of thought: low tax rate->more multinationals->higher debt for local business and government->higher tax rate->less multinationals->social catastrophe into your line of thought: low tax rate->more multinationals->property bubble->"current problems" what are "current problems" you identify in Ireland anyway? all I was saying is that low tax rate is not su…

I originally thought you were implying that low tax rates to lure in business was the cause of debt:

rmc: "In Ireland, these kinds of tax breaks are one of the foundations of our economy."

You: "And that's the reason Ireland has something like 1000% external debt to GDP"

I pointed out that a property bubble was the primary cause, and that low tax rates are unrelated to this. Lets put aside your original argument, and focus on the new one. You assert "more multinationals->higher debt for local business and government". Could you explain this step?

As for why Ireland was hurt more than others, their bubble was bigger:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ireland_house_prices.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c1/Median_and_Ave...

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#152

Post by gruseom »

dennisgorelik wrote: post #92
Anechoic wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

run amazing free services (search, Gmail, Google Earth, Google Maps, Google Finance, Google News, Google Voice, Google Reader, Feedburner, many many others). Also, they're internally investing in energy and robotics like the auto-driven cars thing None of those products/services would be possible but for the government spending taxpayer money to develop the infrastructure behind those services (the internet, roads, G…

Judging from this downvoted comment -- this discussion is overtaken by libertarian crowd (which I'm part of). Still it's not a good idea to down-vote comments that you do not agree with. Down-voting is intended for boring/offensive comments which you do not want to see in further discussions.

Downvoting is a legitimate way to disagree when you don't have time or anything useful to say. It's not true that it was intended only for the cases you describe. This is one of those debates (like the decline of HN relative to Reddit) that will never go away despite the fact that it is settled.

That said, I think it's pretty foolish to downvote Anechoic's argument, which is cogent and grounded in historical fact. I don't see how anyone can argue against the role of the public sector in creating major technological infrastructure on a bloody internet forum.

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#153

Post by tkahn6 »

notahacker wrote: post #101
lionhearted wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That seems absurd by free enterprise standards and I am genuinely curious to know why refusing to do this would be called "evil." When taxes come up, it tends not to be a well-thought, cohesive, pros-and-cons thing. It tends to be an emotional/identity thing. Some people think and almost always argue it'd be a good thing if companies gave more money over to governments. Me, I think it's very good for the world on e…

The NHS employs a lot more people than Google and carries out research and development into saving people's lives. Sure, what Google does is great, but I'm really not convinced that thinking up ever more creative outlets to display targeted advertising is necessarily a better outcome for society than spending the money on the UK public sector, which has many worthwhile projects of its own. I'm going to go out on a li…

but it's equally a stretch to suggest that we're better off because Google pays less tax

In absolutely no way is it a stretch to say that and I'm terribly surprised you have any upvotes. Are you aware of how many services Google provides for free that make my life (and probably yours) better?

Google Search

Google Maps

Android

Google Navigation (on Android)

Google Patent Search

Google Book Search (Working with libraries to digitize old books)

Gmail

Google Translate

Google Code

Google Summer of Code

Thousands of tech talks made available online

Google Docs

Google Calendar

and a lot more...

One of the core tenets of capitalism is that the success an innovation of private companies benefits the public. This isn't true in all cases, but most certainly it is in the case of Google.

sometimes multimillion sums are better spent on schools and hospitals

Do I even need to cite a source that says throwing more money at the public school system won't stop them them being so shitty? That's a pretty common thing to hear now -- especially on HN, and I very much think it's true (from personal experience).

And with hospitals, what exactly do you want more money for? More beds? More nurses? More money for the uninsured? Are you sure that will fix our nation's healthcare problem? I'm not an expert by any means whatsoever on this topic, but as far as I know, the quality of America's healthcare system, bad or good, is largely a function of governmental policy.

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#154

Post by rmc »

borism wrote: post #59
yummyfajitas wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Um, Ireland had a big property bubble, which is the cause of their current troubles. High corporate tax rates didn't prevent a property bubble in the US or Spain, why would they have prevented one in Ireland?

Um, Ireland's structural problems are not limited to property bubble? Perhaps it's the symptom, not the cause?

There was a large bank bailout, due to how much the banks had invested in property. A large percentage of government income (around 25%) came from 'Stamp Duty', the tax you must pay when you buy a house. When the property market collapsed, the government was getting less money that it was used to.

i.e. the collapse of the property market increased government spending/debt and decreased government income.

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#155

Post by rmc »

shasta wrote: post #147
Travis wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+1. This is similar to the major reason I despise the band U2 (besides their awful music): they bitch and moan about helping poor children in Africa. They even recently complained that the British gov't doesn't send enough money to impoverished countries. But they have a major tax haven set up that deprives the gov't of tax revenue. You just need to be consistent. Google has gotten a lot of benefits out of their "Do…

So they preach that the government doesn't spend money on the right things, but then in practice don't want to give money to that government? The hypocrites!

The point is U2 try to get people to be less selfish and more giving, all the while exploiting what they can to keep more of their money

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#156

Post by philwelch »

rdtsc wrote: post #134
jdietrich wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a curious thought, but I actually think I'd prefer to be a subject of Google than Her Majesty's Government. Larry, Sergei, if you're reading - please make a bid for UK PLC. It's weighed down with debts and the current management are a shower of shite, but the headquarters are pretty swanky and I hear there are some great engineers on the payroll in Cambridge.

That is a very common idea among right-wing Americans -- they'd rather have companies take care of us than the government. The government is wasteful and full of beaurocrats. Let Walmart, P&G, and Monstanto clothe, wash and feed rather than the beaurocrats in Washington. I guess the idea is that many educated and informed consumers will pick among the best companies and competition will drive the costs down.

That is a very common idea among right-wing Americans -- they'd rather have companies take care of us than the government.

No, right-wing Americans want to take care of themselves. They would just rather freely pay for certain services (health care, for instance) from competing private firms than be provided it by the government.

Framing the question as "who will clothe and feed and wash us" is implicitly a leftist framing. Taken literally, it rises to absurdity--physically, most people clothe and feed and wash themselves, and even more generally, it's hard to name a successful country where the government provides most people with clothing, food, or soap (though I'll grant the running water).

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#157

Post by RickHull »

borism wrote: post #144
RickHull wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact is that they pay 2% tax while most US based persons pay at least 10x that rate. And this is Google's fault? If you don't like the outcomes that result from players playing by the rules, perhaps you should direct your ire toward the rulemakers rather than the players.

I don't think I suggested anywhere that it's Google's fault?

I got that implication from your response to cperciva, who was saying, in effect, that Google was acting neither unethically nor illegally.

Pointing out the "unfairness" of their reported tax rate does not directly refute cperciva's comment, but it seemed to stand in opposition to it nonetheless. I inferred that you think Google is at fault, here.

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#158

Post by shasta »

rmc wrote: post #155
shasta wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So they preach that the government doesn't spend money on the right things, but then in practice don't want to give money to that government? The hypocrites!

The point is U2 try to get people to be less selfish and more giving, all the while exploiting what they can to keep more of their money

That would be hypocritical if they were trying to get people to be less selfish and to give more to the government. It's certainly not hypocritical if they're giving a significant portion of that would-be-taxed money to charities.

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#160

Post by borism »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #151
borism wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a very hard time understanding how you translate my line of thought: low tax rate->more multinationals->higher debt for local business and government->higher tax rate->less multinationals->social catastrophe into your line of thought: low tax rate->more multinationals->property bubble->"current problems" what are "current problems" you identify in Ireland anyway? all I was saying is that low tax rate is not su…

I originally thought you were implying that low tax rates to lure in business was the cause of debt: rmc: "In Ireland, these kinds of tax breaks are one of the foundations of our economy." You: "And that's the reason Ireland has something like 1000% external debt to GDP" I pointed out that a property bubble was the primary cause, and that low tax rates are unrelated to this. Lets put aside your original argument, and…

Oh well. But WHY was the bubble bigger in Ireland? Do Irishmen need some kind of bigger houses and more of them than the rest of the world?

Anyway, we keep going and going in circles. Let's stop. The whole story (including why more debt) is very well described here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_Tiger

More on that later I guess.

Let me just add that it would be very simplistic to attribute "current problems" just to the property bubble, or high debts to just low tax rate for multinationals. So to make it clear, that's not how I think.

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