Live data from Hacker News

The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

businessweek.com

251–260 of 292 posts

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#251
"Apple (AAPL), Oracle (ORCL), Microsoft (MSFT), and IBM (IBM)"

Those companies all sell hardware. Apple can't say 'lets book those Palo Alto store sales in Bermuda'. Ads served are a total volatile good (their value is the time they spend rendered on a screen infront of a user). Google has a huge advantage because of this (and it also makes the ad trade ideal for money laundering).

To relate this to startups :

If you are a startup and you are accepting foreign money and you are bringing it straight into the US and paying tax on it, then you are doing it wrong. A merchant account in Bermuda is easy to setup and is completely legal. If you are not doing all you can to minimize your tax obligation then you are not doing your job properly.

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#253
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using tax havens is certainly not one of these cases.

You probably mean "tax haven", which is a rhetorical slight-of-hand to suggest that jurisdictions competing for attention via tax rates are somehow enticing people to sin. Competing via tax rates is just another way of enticing people to behave differently. Some people are under the impression that this happens only internationally. This is incorrect. One of the healthiest features of the American experiment is a fed…

yes 'tax haven' is a slur invented by the high-tax rich countries to belittle their competing nations who have lower tax rates to attract individuals and corporations.

you never hear Singapore, Dubai or Hong Kong being called 'tax havens' (they are), the word is usually associated with 'Dutch Antillies, Bermuda, Jersey, Guernsey' (ie. evil nations who are taking our money)

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#254

Startup idea: Company that cheaply sets up individuals/small companies to evade taxes in the same way big corporations do. You pay a subscription fee or something and they fill out the returns and set up a PO Box in Bermuda or whatever.

There are tons of companies who sell shelf companies online. ie. $800 and we ship you a corp registration, a bank account, an office address etc.

For small companies with a single office etc., that is all that an offshore tax structure is.

The point is that when you structure these things, you don't want anybody to notice and you want to be a small target. Being a client of a startup whose intended purpose is to minimize your tax bill is the opposite of remaining unnoticed.

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#255
post #249
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you aware of how many services Google provides for free that make my life (and probably yours) better? Are you aware of how many services the NHS provides for free which make my life better, despite being cripplingly underfunded? I'm not saying that google are evil for avoiding taxes, bit neither am I convinced that I wouldn't be better off if the money made its way into my governments hands.

I'm not. Could you list some, please?

This is just for England but you should get the picture: http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/AboutNHSservices/Pages/NHSServi...

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#256
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which of the above services do you think wouldn't exist if Google avoided less tax? There's an opportunity cost of private companies paying less tax too - either someone else pays more tax which marginally decreases their ability to be productive and enterprising or something purportedly socially beneficial doesn't get paid for. Even coupled with inspired management, the profit motive doesn't ensure that an acquisiti…

Which of the above services do you think wouldn't exist if Google avoided less tax? You're going to have to explain to me how this is relevant. What Google is doing is legal which means that you're trying to make this an argument about ethics. My point is that Google provides real value to millions of people around the world and has the resources, both human and monetary, to make real progress in many areas of techno…

You almost seem to be proposing that, had this loophole not been available, you would have Google government funded for the same amount because the services Google provides are better than those provided by the government.

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#257
post #13

Google is "flying a banner of doing no evil, and then they're perpetrating evil under our noses," says Abraham J. Briloff, a professor emeritus of accounting at Baruch College who has examined Google's tax disclosures. Maybe it is the lawyer in me, but why wouldn't any international business do whatever it could legally do to minimize its taxes? I understand that governments might want to consider these as loopholes…

Don't blame the player, blame the game. Tax loopholes should be closed in law, Google and other corporations have a responsibility to their shareholders - why shouldn't they act within the law to save money? I remember seeing a fun flow-chart of the IKEA tax avoidance scheme. Didn't have as amusing names as those used in this article though :)

tech guys have server naming schemes, lawyers have offshore tax-minimization entity naming schemes.

(personally if I ever got that big, I would name them all after characters from The Wire - just so I could say thing like 'lets shift all that to prop joe corp'. Hearing it all told back to you in court would be even more amusing.)

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#258
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but it's equally a stretch to suggest that we're better off because Google pays less tax In absolutely no way is it a stretch to say that and I'm terribly surprised you have any upvotes. Are you aware of how many services Google provides for free that make my life (and probably yours) better? Google Search Google Maps Android Google Navigation (on Android) Google Patent Search Google Book Search (Working with librari…

To say any of these things have made anyones life better is quite a stretch. Has gmail improved your quality of life? Really? Choose your words carefully. Indoor plumbing and electricity made life better. Gmail has not. Your email was fine before Gmail. And Google should pay their F-ing taxes. I do.

The point of this comment is to provide perspective. Of course GMail has contributed to an improvement in life but compared to these other things the improvement is small. We are also assuming that had GMail not been created another company couldn't do it.

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#259
post #254

Startup idea: Company that cheaply sets up individuals/small companies to evade taxes in the same way big corporations do. You pay a subscription fee or something and they fill out the returns and set up a PO Box in Bermuda or whatever.

There are tons of companies who sell shelf companies online. ie. $800 and we ship you a corp registration, a bank account, an office address etc. For small companies with a single office etc., that is all that an offshore tax structure is. The point is that when you structure these things, you don't want anybody to notice and you want to be a small target. Being a client of a startup whose intended purpose is to mini…

[deleted]

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#260
post #13

Google is "flying a banner of doing no evil, and then they're perpetrating evil under our noses," says Abraham J. Briloff, a professor emeritus of accounting at Baruch College who has examined Google's tax disclosures. Maybe it is the lawyer in me, but why wouldn't any international business do whatever it could legally do to minimize its taxes? I understand that governments might want to consider these as loopholes…

why wouldn't any international business do whatever it could legally do to minimize its taxes?

The argument for not doing so (or at least, not going to such lengths to minimize the tax burden) is political rather than legal. I don't think it's 'evil,' incidentally, so please take the following as descriptive rather than proscriptive!

What happens when a company expands overseas? Well, it's a coup for the receiving country. There's a ribbon-cutting ceremony, speeches are made about the number of jobs it will create, people feel good about the past taxes they paid that went towards educating the workforce, and and there's a general expectation that the country will pick up 'a bit of the action' in three ways: by collecting some taxes from a successful business (pure rent-seeking, but after all that's part of why investing in education and infrastructure seemed like a good idea to begin with); by attracting other businesses in the same sector and getting a 'hub effect,' which will build up a secondary market serving these firms' ancillary needs (eg payroll, new real estate etc.); and a long-term benefit as employees of the Big Foreign Corporation develop world-class skills and later some of them start companies of their own or guide university researchers etc., making the country's economy more competitive and modern.

What happens is a little different. Usually the incoming firm has negotiated a favorable tax regime with the local government, and the long-term benefits of the secondary market and skill development are estimated to be greater than the foregone tax revenue. When I grew up (in Ireland) the usual approach was for the government to give a 10 year tax holiday in return for building a factory and training the employees, on the theory that the business would be OK with paying tax at the normal rate after a decade. But quite a few companies just shut down their factories when the 10 years ran out, because paying taxes was more expensive than setting up anew in some other developing economy and shipping the product. Of course, then the secondary market that had grown up servicing the industrial and consumer demand for local services would collapse.

So gradually there was a shift towards less rent-seeking (by allowing this sort of accounting manipulation) in return for the hope of increased long-term stability in secondary markets and skill growth. Unfortunately IMO, what has happened with a lot of tech and financial companies that moved to Ireland in particular is that that little technology transfer takes place. For example, Microsoft used to be a fairly big employer in both the UK and Ireland (not sure about now), but the bulk of the work was technical support and localization, rather than software engineering. Similarly most of the financial business in Dublin was backoffice processing because it was cheaper to do it there than in London or Paris (plus it gave UK companies an easy in to the European market). Jobs like that are less sticky if the tax regime changes, and while they probably do make the country's economy more competitive the gains are smaller and over a longer term than people anticipate - hence the endless supply of stories about some new location attracting a few tech companies and declaring itself to be 'Silicon _______.'

The secondary markets which provide ancillary services to the firm and its local employees thus do best out of such an arrangement, and a lenient tax regime keeps them going for longer - in practice, as long as wage differentials are sustainable for the parent company, and there isn't an equally capable workforce available to do the task for substantially less. Service jobs (at the foreign firm) are somewhat sticky because you can't move your call center from Dublin to Shanghai - but you might be able to find that in Bangalore. Meanwhile, if enough foreign firms set up shop in a country and a thriving secondary market grows up to service their ancillaries - plant, payroll and infrastructure for the firm itself, housing and consumer services for the happy employees. Of course, this tends to overheat the local economy: if you think the US property boom was out of control, you should have seen the Irish one. The price/earnings ratio for housing in Dublin shot up to 100:1.

Predictably, the party stopped right around the time when the cost of living had inflated wages high enough to make Ireland a less attractive destination for multinationals. Irish people were feeling so prosperous and skilled at making money that nobody wanted to do boring things like farm work or child care, and so the country saw an influx of Polish farmhands and nannies who everyone agreed made great workers. Several multinational firms came to the same conclusion; Dell used to have a manufacturing plant near my hometown in Ireland which was the largest local employer, but decided to close it and open a new one in Poland instead, resulting in the loss of ~2000 jobs. Of course the former employees still have their skills, but assembling PCs on an assembly line turns out not to be all that special, and my understanding is that Dell had a policy of not recruiting for management from the local workforce, or even hiring skilled people who were likely to apply for internally-advertised management positions rather than stay on the assembly line.

(Please bear in mind that I'm drastically oversimplifying here, so as not to make this comment even longer.)

Post reply on HN