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The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

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Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#241

Post by andreyf »

notahacker wrote: post #170
tkahn6 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but it's equally a stretch to suggest that we're better off because Google pays less tax In absolutely no way is it a stretch to say that and I'm terribly surprised you have any upvotes. Are you aware of how many services Google provides for free that make my life (and probably yours) better? Google Search Google Maps Android Google Navigation (on Android) Google Patent Search Google Book Search (Working with librari…

Which of the above services do you think wouldn't exist if Google avoided less tax? There's an opportunity cost of private companies paying less tax too - either someone else pays more tax which marginally decreases their ability to be productive and enterprising or something purportedly socially beneficial doesn't get paid for. Even coupled with inspired management, the profit motive doesn't ensure that an acquisiti…

Which of the above services do you think wouldn't exist if Google avoided less tax?

Easy: how many of the above services are profitable? The more taxes Google is forced to pay, the less they can invest in experimental and long-term projects.

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#242

Post by andreyf »

codexon wrote: post #224
tkahn6 wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has gmail improved your quality of life? Really? The ability to access my email from anywhere, organize, and quickly search through thousands and thousands of emails in seconds has improved my quality of life. Maybe not as much as indoor plumbing, but it has.

Your enthusiasm for gmail has blinded you to the reality. Sure it might be the best thing to you since sliced bread, but in every market estimate, gmail still trails behind hotmail and yahoo mail which means that for most people, gmail is not a radical improvement. http://www.quantcast.com/profile/trafficGraph?wunit=wd%3Acom... http://tctechcrunch.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/gmailvs-hotm... Of course, since you are o…

It's curious that you mention college freshmen because GMail saves Universities boatloads of money in infrastructure costs.

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#243

Post by danenania »

codexon wrote: post #212
tkahn6 wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which of the above services do you think wouldn't exist if Google avoided less tax? You're going to have to explain to me how this is relevant. What Google is doing is legal which means that you're trying to make this an argument about ethics. My point is that Google provides real value to millions of people around the world and has the resources, both human and monetary, to make real progress in many areas of techno…

Google's only unique offering is search All the other stuff, maps, email, translate, etc... were incremental improvements of already available and competitive free services. You also neglected to list the dozens of flops that Google undoubtly spent millions, perhaps billions on. Remember Wave, Answers, Jaiku, Dodgeball, etc...? And how much of those billions of unpaid taxes went to buying out the competition and thus…

From an economic perspective, that's an argument in favor of Google. When private companies miscalculate or mismanage, their products and investments don't make profits and fail, thus freeing up resources for better uses. When government programs are poorly run, they go over budget and often use that as a justification for asking for MORE money. There is no incentive to be efficient or diligent when someone else foots the bill.

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#244

Post by codexon »

andreyf wrote: post #242
codexon wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your enthusiasm for gmail has blinded you to the reality. Sure it might be the best thing to you since sliced bread, but in every market estimate, gmail still trails behind hotmail and yahoo mail which means that for most people, gmail is not a radical improvement. http://www.quantcast.com/profile/trafficGraph?wunit=wd%3Acom... http://tctechcrunch.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/gmailvs-hotm... Of course, since you are o…

It's curious that you mention college freshmen because GMail saves Universities boatloads of money in infrastructure costs.

I think it's curious that you would try and argue this.

Before Google sold gmail to colleges, my college and many others used squirrelmail and pine which was more than adequate. Any sizable college that had an IT department that could support email anyway.

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#245

Post by kragen »

grellas wrote: post #13

Google is "flying a banner of doing no evil, and then they're perpetrating evil under our noses," says Abraham J. Briloff, a professor emeritus of accounting at Baruch College who has examined Google's tax disclosures. Maybe it is the lawyer in me, but why wouldn't any international business do whatever it could legally do to minimize its taxes? I understand that governments might want to consider these as loopholes…

I guess when you as a company claim the high ground ("do no evil")

The slogan wasn't "do no evil", which is impossible, but "don't be evil," which is much closer to being within reach; and its intended audience was Google employees, not people outside the company. Google probably should have aggressively refused to comment on rumors that this slogan was widespread, rather than publicly confirming it.

A cynic might argue that the constant press attacks on Google resulting from this slogan are from people who have resigned themselves to being evil and are angry that someone else has the courage to attempt otherwise.

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#246

Post by alextgordon »

tkahn6 wrote: post #153
notahacker wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NHS employs a lot more people than Google and carries out research and development into saving people's lives. Sure, what Google does is great, but I'm really not convinced that thinking up ever more creative outlets to display targeted advertising is necessarily a better outcome for society than spending the money on the UK public sector, which has many worthwhile projects of its own. I'm going to go out on a li…

but it's equally a stretch to suggest that we're better off because Google pays less tax In absolutely no way is it a stretch to say that and I'm terribly surprised you have any upvotes. Are you aware of how many services Google provides for free that make my life (and probably yours) better? Google Search Google Maps Android Google Navigation (on Android) Google Patent Search Google Book Search (Working with librari…

And with hospitals, what exactly do you want more money for? More beds? More nurses? More money for the uninsured? Are you sure that will fix our nation's healthcare problem? I'm not an expert by any means whatsoever on this topic, but as far as I know, the quality of America's healthcare system, bad or good, is largely a function of governmental policy.

Just in case you hadn't noticed, the post you are replying to is about the NHS, which is not affected by US government policy.

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#247

Post by codexon »

danenania wrote: post #243
codexon wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google's only unique offering is search All the other stuff, maps, email, translate, etc... were incremental improvements of already available and competitive free services. You also neglected to list the dozens of flops that Google undoubtly spent millions, perhaps billions on. Remember Wave, Answers, Jaiku, Dodgeball, etc...? And how much of those billions of unpaid taxes went to buying out the competition and thus…

From an economic perspective, that's an argument in favor of Google. When private companies miscalculate or mismanage, their products and investments don't make profits and fail, thus freeing up resources for better uses. When government programs are poorly run, they go over budget and often use that as a justification for asking for MORE money. There is no incentive to be efficient or diligent when someone else foot…

You make it sound like no government program has ever been cut or removed. You also make it sound like private companies can do no wrong, and that customers always act in their best interest like rational agents. This is a fallacy learned in every ECON 101 class.

Millions, even billions of dollars are siphoned off in people buying useless products like Acai Berry or junk bonds labled as AAA that do nothing for society or even themselves. Now imagine what other useless industries these people would invest given that a company like Google could make so many flops? That is essentially X times more waste where X is the percentage that these junk dealers reinvest.

As someone said more eloquently than I have: "Why do I need your government nanny state telling me how to build my cars? If people who drive my cars die, then they won't buy more cars. THE FREE MARKET WORKS PEOPLE."

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#248

Post by kragen »

marbletiles wrote: post #222
tkahn6 wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But really, the continuing argument that because you like Google Maps it's therefore better that Google gets to keep all of its tax euros out of the hands of underfunded public services is close to incoherent. Unless you can show that those services are in the same sort of existential danger as high-end cancer treatment is in the UK, the argument is specious. a. I did not say that Google shouldn't pay any taxes. b. W…

I still maintain that Google can do more good with more efficiency than any government. That's fine, but there are plenty of other people who disagree with the assertion. If the money is in the hands of the government, at least those other voices get a say in how it is spent. The opportunity cost for anything you spend $3bn on is very high. A government could choose to spend it on cancer research or space ships. Goog…

If we're going to be strictly factual about it, Google is actually spending money on cancer research and spaceships; http://www.columbia.edu/cu/news/oncampus/08/10/google.html describes one of a number of grants that are going to researchers on, among other things, cancer; Larry Brilliant himself suffered from thyroid cancer. Also, Google bought SpaceShipOne, which is now on display at the Googleplex. Presumably Scaled Composites is using the proceeds from the sale for spaceship research. Sergey is going to space in a private space flight next year, assuming all goes well: http://www.spaceadventures.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=news.vie...

There are many other investments in cancer research and space travel being made by individual Googlers.

However, it is perhaps more to the point that both Google Search and Google Academic are crucial research tools for medical research and for aerospace engineering, as for many other fields.

Both directly and through its employees, Google is also funding substantial applied research in crucial areas such as renewable energy production, genomics, public health, and ground transportation.

I don't know what you mean by "disastrous public plumbing in the US". My experience with US municipal water supplies and sewers during the 29 years that I lived there was that they were inexpensive, reliable, safe, and efficient. My experience with water supplies (and sometimes sewers) in other countries has been much worse.

A personal note: I haven't ever tried to work for Google because of, essentially, ethical concerns: I am in danger of having to live in a world where a large fraction of our communications are intermediated by a single company, and I think Google's cultish secrecy is corrosive to the values of Silicon Valley. However, I think Google should only be dinged for its real faults, not imagined ones.

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#249

Post by blhack »

jamii wrote: post #193
tkahn6 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but it's equally a stretch to suggest that we're better off because Google pays less tax In absolutely no way is it a stretch to say that and I'm terribly surprised you have any upvotes. Are you aware of how many services Google provides for free that make my life (and probably yours) better? Google Search Google Maps Android Google Navigation (on Android) Google Patent Search Google Book Search (Working with librari…

> Are you aware of how many services Google provides for free that make my life (and probably yours) better? Are you aware of how many services the NHS provides for free which make my life better, despite being cripplingly underfunded? I'm not saying that google are evil for avoiding taxes, bit neither am I convinced that I wouldn't be better off if the money made its way into my governments hands.

I'm not. Could you list some, please?

Re: The Tax Haven That's Saving Google Billions

#250

Post by marbletiles »

kragen wrote: post #248
marbletiles wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still maintain that Google can do more good with more efficiency than any government. That's fine, but there are plenty of other people who disagree with the assertion. If the money is in the hands of the government, at least those other voices get a say in how it is spent. The opportunity cost for anything you spend $3bn on is very high. A government could choose to spend it on cancer research or space ships. Goog…

If we're going to be strictly factual about it, Google is actually spending money on cancer research and spaceships; http://www.columbia.edu/cu/news/oncampus/08/10/google.html describes one of a number of grants that are going to researchers on, among other things, cancer; Larry Brilliant himself suffered from thyroid cancer. Also, Google bought SpaceShipOne, which is now on display at the Googleplex. Presumably Scal…

Sorry, that wasn't really the intention of my example, which was to show the range of government spending. Ultimately, though, it boils down to this: Google isn't doing anything with this money, except earning less than 1% interest on it.

Google can afford to pay taxes in the countries in which it operates. That it does not, while obviously legally defensible, reflects poorly on the other work it does.

Public plumbing: the US infrastructure is badly out of date, and unable to meet most projected demands for expansion. The US Geological survey projects that 1.7 trillion gallons of water are lost through leaks in the system each year -- about $2.6bn in value. http://www.epa.gov/awi/distributionsys.html

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