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Tech Workers Now Want to Know: What Are We Building This For?

nytimes.com

131–140 of 354 posts

Re: Tech Workers Now Want to Know: What Are We Building This For?

#131
post #5

For money, my dear, for money. Is there any other reason for a company to exist? The stuff like "do no evil" or "we are green" is just a smoke screen. At the end they will do everything for money.

I was under the impression that pre 20th century companies just existed as a legal and organizational convenience in order to help collect a number of people with similar goals rather than to solely make a profit.

> I was under the impression that pre 20th century companies just existed as a legal and organizational convenience in order to help collect a number of people with similar goals rather than to solely make a profit.

You might want to have a look at an history book then. Companies had slaves, got kids working in mines, got to use the government to shout their workers who rebelled because they had no rights whatsoever, or just straight up used private armies. It was all pre 20th century already. If all this was not solely to make a profit, I don't know what it was.

Furthermore the great majority of big ventures were family driven. There were not formal associations between "people with similar goals" who weren't blood related.

Re: Tech Workers Now Want to Know: What Are We Building This For?

#132
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough. At this point I would not work for either as well. But that’s how to make decisions, not by politicizing the work environment.

>not by politicizing the work environment. What type of politics should be allowed at work? What about talks about workers rights, wages? What about conversation on ethics & morals behind projects they themselves are contributing to? Do Libertarians believe authoritarian private governments akin to communist dictatorships (employers) can strip your rights when you clock in?

Are Chinese companies in China under duress? Are they protesting? Whats the consensus of the Chinese hoi polloi?

China is not “the west”, their foundational philosophy is very different than ours. We can’t expect their decisions to be exactly like ours.

Would I want to live under their confitions? No. Do Chinese on the other hand object? It’s still playing itself out.

Re: Tech Workers Now Want to Know: What Are We Building This For?

#134
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about you. But if I can get riches at Google, I can get riches at Facebook, Apple or Microsoft too. The reason I would have chosen Google, and the reason I entrusted Google with all my personal information in the first place, was knowing they had that slogan. I just couldn't imagine they'd ever erase it... Now who is left? I guess I'm waiting for the Internet Archive to turn evil...

I still like Google. I never worked there, but "cataloging the world's information and making it available for free" is still great. It's complicated yes, but Google — more than any other tech company — has empowered me to do the things I care about. Mainly by making information easy to find.

> cataloging the world's information and making it available for free

What does the mission of archive.org have to do with Google?

Re: Tech Workers Now Want to Know: What Are We Building This For?

#135
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How would you like people to square this with providing for their families? With a capable human brain, like we all have! Just because a decision is hard doesn’t absolve you of the responsibility to make the right one—all people making decisions have been faced with this, including many people commonly considered evil. Computers are levers, and developers are the fulcrum. We have quite a bit of negotiation power. F…

You're still begging the question. How does one choose between doing something supports a questionably moral company (and what isn't a company without any moral baggage?) and keeping your family fed and warm? > Just because a decision is hard doesn’t absolve you of the responsibility to make the right [choice] I think this is telling: you believe there is a correct choice in all situations, from all points of view. I…

The decisions we make in life, and our difficulty making them, defines us. I can’t help you define your morality here.

Re: Tech Workers Now Want to Know: What Are We Building This For?

#136

I find it surprising that educated people are "just now" doing this. What did people think corporations were doing to the world? Open up your eyes and look around and get your head out of the code and the bullshit slogans your companies have sold you. It's obvious something has gone wrong and is going on.

Eh well let's not throw corporations under the bus entirely. Corporate organization allows people to work together to take risks and tackle problems that are too big for individuals. This has given us the modern technology upon which most of us here earn our livings and given us huge advances in health and standard of living.

Have corporations done bad things? Of course, and so they are regulated, and there are processes for dealing with bad corporate behavior.

Re: Tech Workers Now Want to Know: What Are We Building This For?

#137
post #71
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> despite living in a rich planet people are starving A overused rhetoric that does not hold much ground when you realize that poverty is decreasing fast everywhere around, and faster than we expected it to. https://ourworldindata.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/World-...

The way we measure a "decreasing poverty" is extremely laden politically (like most things that are supposedly "neutrally evaluated" are supposed to be, just because they're represented as spreadsheets of numbers). We consider that a villager living from subsistence farming and therefore having almost no use for money to be part of the very poor, less than 1$/day crowd. Take this same peasant and send it working for…

If subsistence farming is preferable to being a cog in a market economy, why aren’t people switching in the opposite direction?

Re: Tech Workers Now Want to Know: What Are We Building This For?

#138
post #76

bold statement alert if you don't know what your company is doing, and your intricate part in that dance, you are not really providing value to the company, or more importantly to yourself. /bold statement How can you make decisions if you don't understand the business impact? How do you know what if that optimization is worth the cost of implementation? If you don't know the impact of a product release on your custo…

Not necessarily true in big companies. A devops middle manager doesn't need to know whether the company is building widgets or dohickies; their job is to keep the software running securely. CTO/VP Eng should certainly know more about business priorities. At smaller companies it is more important. Also can improve morale.

so how do you negotiate SLAs?

How do you know what level of security is required?

How do you prioritise requests?

How do you know which team to ask favours from?

How do you get more money for your department?

How do you avoid the poop-gravity interaction cycle?

All of this is intrinsically linked to the business logic/goals of the company.

For example: Our team worked with $cashCow team to reduce time to live by x percent. We have saved the company y percent a year. Now give our team more cash we can do it for other teams.

That requires a basic understanding of the business, and its priorities, so you can support the most important internal users and make them more efficient.

Re: Tech Workers Now Want to Know: What Are We Building This For?

#139
post #33

For the over the decade I've been a software engineer I've always strived to work in products with a value proposition for the end user that I can understand. I can't understand how anyone could work without this understanding and not get their soul crushed. Maybe I'm just sensitive or underpaid.

I left a job partly because I felt too dumb to understand the use cases for the product I was writing code for (extremely high-end Test & Measurement). It's very uncomfortable. Maybe not the same kind of "understanding", but this kind of thing can extend beyond morals, at least in my experience.

Re: Tech Workers Now Want to Know: What Are We Building This For?

#140
post #80

I find it surprising that educated people are "just now" doing this. What did people think corporations were doing to the world? Open up your eyes and look around and get your head out of the code and the bullshit slogans your companies have sold you. It's obvious something has gone wrong and is going on.

Engineering abilities does not imply political awareness. Making things work is surprisingly hard and (imho) a soul crushing process. You need a specific kind of people's profile for that. From my experience, the presence of a political vision alongside the engineering skills is much lower than expected. When both are present, the political vision does not come from a kind of enlightenment in the engineer's inner sou…

Very true. It is also easy to be so wrapped up in the trappings of what you're doing and the pleasure/sense of duty/sense of fulfillment you're getting from the actual act of your work and the compensation around it that you stop thinking about the consequences of your actions. This sounds terrible, but it's really just a small variant on the banality of evil.

Solving problems, working on tight deadlines, and getting recognition, status, and money are all things that make a person feel like what they're doing is right. It gives an endorphin high, it's a sign that other people are recognizing their work. I hesitate to use the word "addictive" in this context, but it can certainly be compulsive. It's easy to lose sight of whether what you're doing is what you ought to be doing when the act of doing it is so compelling, financially rewarding, and celebrated by others.

This isn't a justification; it is a warning to anyone coming into this field, a warning that I wish I'd thought more about coming into it. This is something we need to be vigilant about as engineers, because it's easy to look the other way on questionable activities by your business when everything else in your life is becoming enriched by it and they're telling you that the ethical issues are for "their side of the business" to worry about. It is not. Do not believe them. Understand where your paycheck is coming from, and make sure that you continue to evaluate it as your company changes and ask yourself if you're okay with it.

In my career, I have:

* Been lied to about the true purpose of a product we were building, and only realized the lie because another engineer was brave enough to call them out and force them to tell the truth. I was fully prepared to be the coward that didn't follow up on it and remain willfully ignorant, and his ethical bravery was the only thing that snapped me out of it.

* Seen a company's financial plan gradually change from an ethical one to an unethical one, and have seen good people struggle and contort themselves to justify it: including myself, for a time.

* Worked in fields where the profits gained by maintaining the status quo has created a desire for minimium compliance instead of continual improvements.

The mandatory ethics class I took for my CS degree never prepared me for what to do, how to be vigilant, or how to take action when it is the company itself that is the unethical one. I feel like we need to have open and honest discussions with people coming into this field about this very real possibility, and about the need to evaluate not just the compensation and interesting problems being presented by a given business, but also the ways that they earn money and whether it is something you find acceptable. And what to do if that situation takes a turn for the worse.

The ACM has some high-level recommendations in their ethics statements, and I think they're a good start. They should be required reading for all software engineers.

https://ethics.acm.org/

I have been a coward. I have been an example of the banality of evil. And I don't think I'm alone in this field: not by a long shot. We've got to pay attention to the ethics of what we create, and we need to be much more brave than we have been.

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